Item Crafting resembles D&D Spellcasting

[luminos]

You mean other than saying "screw the stress and backlash, I'm going for 10 shifts"? 

And saying that there's literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't is just not true.  Try this:

Three practice targets, A, B, and C, are lined up in a row.  You have 10 seconds to accomplish each task.
1. Cast a spell to gently light this candle on fire.
2. Cast a firebolt, bruning a hole through practice target A.
3. Cast a cone of fire, burning practice targets B and C.
4. Cast a spell to extinguish the candle with a gust of air without knocking it over.
5. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice target B without knocking over A and C.
6. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice targets A and C.

Dresden could do this, the sample Artificer could not (since it requires six different capabilities and is time-limited), even if you assumed that a potion could be created to duplicate these affects, which I'm not sure about.

Or try this: you are stripped of all possession and left otherwise unharmed in a room.  Cast a spell of your choice within the next 10 seconds.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the concept is bad, or that it's under- or over-powered, or that it wouldn't be fun to play.  But it is, as the aspect suggests, only "Sorta a Wizard", not truly one by White Council standards.  To be a true Wizard you need to be capable of both Evocation and Thaumaturgy.  (Though not only that.)

This ain't DnD.  Spell effects are not divied up so tidily.  Maneuver and attack, and he can do all of those effects.  The description will be different, but mechanically, nothing else is.

[Belial666]

The way I see it, someone who has devoted a lot of refinements in crafting can make the spells on his enchanted items last longer and be easier and faster to cast, sort of like someone who specializes in other forms of thaumaturgy can pull off bigger spells and call up more power per exchange to cast them.

So, a focused artificer could craft and maintain several times the enchanted items of an average wizard at the same time just like a focused summoner could summon bigger and more creatures at the same time just like a master evoker could cast bigger evocations and control them better. The maintenance for the items would be the same time-wise even if the items are bigger and more numerous.

And yes, individual spells ARE limited to a specific effect; same shifts of power and same exact effect for said power means same spell. An evoker could change on the fly what spell he uses. An artificer would be stuck with the same item effect until he crafts an item again.



BTW, you can use my graveyard scenario if you want to.

[Kaldra]

on a random sickness and sleep deprived note belial666 you are at the time of this posting 50 posts away from needing a screen shot.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

So, a focused artificer could craft and maintain several times the enchanted items of an average wizard at the same time just like a focused summoner could summon bigger and more creatures at the same time just like a master evoker could cast bigger evocations and control them better. The maintenance for the items would be the same time-wise even if the items are bigger and more numerous.

All of those examples are a result of the effect of having high levels in the relevant skills for that specialty, not some special ingame leniency toward specialists. And Itemcrafters already get that bonus. Having the right skills lets them make more powerful items quicker. But the impermanence of magic items is a result of the dawn washing away magical energies. You cannot get around this. No Wizard is stronger than the sun. No matter how good you are at crafting, you are going to have to do fairly constant tinkering on all of your items to keep them working, and the weaker the items (based on item effect, not caster power), the more frequent the upkeep. Add to that roughly 6 hours per 2 potions to make and you don't have a lot of free time left.
   Thats part of the cost you pay for having riskless spellcasting.   

[Belial666]

Several reasons I do not agree with this;

1) The basic duration of a thaumaturgy spell, not an item, is already until dawn and can be extended to "several human lifetimes" if the caster uses sufficient power. Enchanted items are made to last longer than spells. Care to guess how long a great artificer can make his items last based on that?

2) According to the rules, the "maintenance" aspect of items is already reflected by the refresh you have spent on them for item slots; if you got four item slots from base ritual then that is how many items you could reasonably maintain. If you got thirty-four item slots because you spent 8 refinements on them then that is how many items you could reasonably maintain.

3) A beginner could make only one potion in his free time. But we see Harry Dresden making two potions at the same time. How? While brewing a potion might take hours, the physical movements involved only take a few moments at the right times. Harry has two potion slots; this reflects his ability to handle two potions - he has enough experience to spread his time in the physical actions of 2 potions without problems and the magical energy to infuse 2 potions at once. A master alchemist would have enough experience to handle a dozen potions and enough energy to infuse them. So he could make said dozen potions without spending, like, 2 days. (Don't forget our friend Victor and his making a magical drug by the gallon.)

4) Yes, items need daily maintenance. A begginer might need an hour to maintain the spells on his magic ring. The average wizard might need half an hour to maintain his duster. A great sorceress like Lea could alter or maintain the spells on a magic item with nothing more than a few moments and an act of will. So the stronger and more experienced the crafter, the less time those daily maintenance requirements take per item - and thus the more items the crafter could have.

[Becq]

Actually, he can get 11 shifts on potions with a fate point.

That's what I get for hoping you'd miss that.  Point to you, though the Evoker could save the Fate for later, which is significant.

1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.

Thaumaturgy takes a minimum of minutes to cast, per the rules.  Time is sort of relative in DFRPG, but while it's possible for 10 seconds to be 1 exchange or 1 minute (or even a bit more) to be 1 exchange, it is not possible for 10 seconds to last several minutes.  :p

The rest (except for #4) I'll grant you; the point was that with four potion slots, there's no way to create six unique effects -- which you could do with Evocation.  Now on the other hand, the Artificer could do his more limited repetoir a number of times that would long since see the evoker pass out.  And yes, the Evoker takes stress, whereas the Artificer doesn't.  Did you miss the part where I mentioned I wasn't trying to prove that the Artificer was weaker?  A Fae spellslinger could easily be much, much more powerful, too ... but even so, Mab is also not a Wizard.

1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.

I agree with you that it's debatable whether or not the white council would let this character in, but if the tests you pose are the entry quals, he passes easier than Dresden does.[/quote]
I disagree, based on my discussion of time required for rituals above.  That said, my post was not "the Wizard test", to my knowledge we don't know what that test is.  But I'm betting that the first part of it requires that you leave behind all of your 'stuff', even your clothes (I imagine they'd provide a simple robe).  This would be to specifically remove powers based on things like IoPs ... and would cause the Artificer a bit of a problem.

Belial's and Ryan's subsequent exchanges highlight, I think, very well the strengths and weaknesses of both Wizards and Artificers, and in particular Ryan's post has some good ideas as to how the two could complement each other.

A few bits to add:

Regarding the 'to hit' deficit, I beleive the Artificer could probably come up with ways to improve his odds of landing attacks.  One option might be to creat a Focus to boost his Control rolls.  This would either weaken his items, reduce his item count, or require additional Refresh.  Another might be to have an enchanted item that grants him an aspect useful to his control rolls.  This would allow him to get one free tag, then provide a channel for Fate (though that would be expensive -- he could also rely on applying a new aspect each shot, which would cost exchanges and eventually mental stress to re-use the item once expended).

Regarding the AoE counterspell to completely disarm the Artificer ... well, "wow".  I'm going to have to remember that one! 

Regarding the duration of Thaumaturgy spells: there is no "basic duration of Thaumaturgy" of "until dawn".  The example, in the section on Thaum durations of YS266, gives the example of a Thaum spell that grants an aspect, and states that the base duration for such spells is one scene, or fifteen mintutes (in the example, it mentions that +5 shifts would let it last for the day).  Generally, stuff that causes stress or generates aspects (maneuvers) has a base time of a scene, stuff that grants a skill use lasts about the length of time that skill roll would cover, damage (consequences) last until the consequence would wear off, etc.  'Until daybreak' is the catch-all for stuff that is otherwise not obvious, and for location-based Thaum spells.

Regarding the need for 'daily maintenance', I don't think this is necessarily true.  For potions, it likely is.  But for wards, not so.  In fact, I could swear I recall a discussion somewhere in which Harry discusses that he found a formula that let the enchantments on certain of his items (like his coat) last months at a time.  I couldn't tell you where, though.  In particular, I don't recall Harry ever taking time to renew his enchantments (except to rebuild an enchantment that had been broken), and it is often true that the novels leave very little un-plotted time in which such things could occur.  Perhaps a better explanation would be to claim that items require a contant subconcious mantainence, and that 'item slots' represent the ability to manage a certain amount of this constant drain without ill effects.  Under this theory (and its just a theory), perhaps a house rule might allow a Thaumaturgist to create additional items on a short term basis, but at the cost of a consequence ("My mana cannae take much more o' this, Cap'n!") that cannot be recovered from until the character lets the enchantment drop (or, to put it another way, the recovery period starts when the mana strain stops).