DFRPG Mechanics With A Twist: Help Needed

[Crion]

I'm still in the boat of rocky starts and tons of stalls for trying to get a game of Dresden rolling, and the main opposition I face is the story. At least two of my players like the concept of the system, but as I am the only one who has read the books, it creates some objection from some players. (The second objection was combat being too deadly, but if they want Action-packed games, that can be arranged)

As they are still on a fantasy kick, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts of "turning up" Dresden to a more "adventurous" degree for a fantasy setting. I took a look at Legends of Anglerre, but I like the magic and character customization of Dresden just a bit more.

At the moment, I am considering adding a few more levels of Stress to the "baseline" (i.e. starting at 4 instead of 2), replacing Guns with Archery, making Science a bit more primitive, and seeing where that goes.

Has anyone else done anything similar, whether changing the timeframe or twisting aspects of Dresden into another FATE game? Any random thoughts or suggestions on this idea?

Thanks in advance for the input!

[TheMouse]

You should be able to handle typical fantasy out of the box with fairly few changes. Mostly you just have to be flexible with allowing powers to suit character concepts.

Adding more stress boxes shouldn't be a problem for most characters. The only real problem with that type of thing is that getting stress is kind of boring, while taking Consequences is more interesting. But if your group likes it like that, it shouldn't create any major issues.

[gaelvin]

One way you could ratchet up the Fantasy element, but still keep the setting firmly within the Dresdenverse, would be to set the main action of the story in the Nevernever. The Faerie Realms are right next door to our own world, and beyond them the Nevernever is filled with an endless variety of places; Valhalla, the Dreamtime, Olympia...

Additional stress boxes would be the easiest way to get a more adventurous/cinematic feel to conflicts. Also, I'm toying with the idea of allowing characters with Evocation to spend a Fate point instead of taking a point of stress when they cast an evocation spell. It would allow them to pump out a few more spells when they need to, but they'd also need to take those Compels in order to build up their FP supply.

[Becq]

Instead of two stress boxes, I'd give all players an extra mild consequence, or perhaps two mild or even a mild and a moderate.  This will mean that there are still consequences after a fight, but the will tend to be less severe and therefore more quickly healed.

Healing is a staple in fantasy RPG settings, and is a bit problematic for DFRPG -- specifically it tends to make consequences trivial since the healer just erases them at the end of each fight.  But without healing, the game might lose the heroic sword and sorcery feel.  I'd look for some sort of compromise.  Of hand, I'd lean toward combining the healing rules in the book with the above added consequences.  You can only heal each consequence once, and doing so allows it to recover as though it was a level of severity less than normal (though still stays in the same consequence slot until healed).  This would allow Mild wounds to be healed almost instantly, Moderate wounds to be healed a scene later, and Severe wounds to be healed by a session later.  I'd require some form of noticeable cost to do this, probably taking the form of a Mild mental consequence to the healer per Moderate or Severe wound healed (to limit the number of healing spells a bit).  Or perhaps charge a Fate point per heal, paid by either the healer or the healed.

If you want to boost magic a bit, you might allow magic users to buy a 'mental' version of Inhuman Recovery, allowing them to recover consequences spent on magic more quickly.

[Crion]

One way you could ratchet up the Fantasy element, but still keep the setting firmly within the Dresdenverse, would be to set the main action of the story in the Nevernever. The Faerie Realms are right next door to our own world, and beyond them the Nevernever is filled with an endless variety of places; Valhalla, the Dreamtime, Olympia...

Additional stress boxes would be the easiest way to get a more adventurous/cinematic feel to conflicts. Also, I'm toying with the idea of allowing characters with Evocation to spend a Fate point instead of taking a point of stress when they cast an evocation spell. It would allow them to pump out a few more spells when they need to, but they'd also need to take those Compels in order to build up their FP supply.

I was contemplating the idea of the Nevernever, but the party is sticking to their guns for a D&D-esque game, so having it in another dimension of the modern world wouldn't exactly help the case.

As for your Fate Point for Evocation: I think it would be a rather steep cost, especially if they are going for a Rote spell or something that is only causing one point of stress. I don't have a solution for this just yet either, but a Submerged Wizard should be sitting on 4 Mental Stress, and possibly a second Mental Consequence, so I haven't seen a problem with it in theory (note I haven't had the chance to get a game off the ground, so everything on my end is just theory).

Instead of two stress boxes, I'd give all players an extra mild consequence, or perhaps two mild or even a mild and a moderate.  This will mean that there are still consequences after a fight, but the will tend to be less severe and therefore more quickly healed.

Healing is a staple in fantasy RPG settings, and is a bit problematic for DFRPG -- specifically it tends to make consequences trivial since the healer just erases them at the end of each fight.  But without healing, the game might lose the heroic sword and sorcery feel.  I'd look for some sort of compromise.  Of hand, I'd lean toward combining the healing rules in the book with the above added consequences.  You can only heal each consequence once, and doing so allows it to recover as though it was a level of severity less than normal (though still stays in the same consequence slot until healed).  This would allow Mild wounds to be healed almost instantly, Moderate wounds to be healed a scene later, and Severe wounds to be healed by a session later.  I'd require some form of noticeable cost to do this, probably taking the form of a Mild mental consequence to the healer per Moderate or Severe wound healed (to limit the number of healing spells a bit).  Or perhaps charge a Fate point per heal, paid by either the healer or the healed.

If you want to boost magic a bit, you might allow magic users to buy a 'mental' version of Inhuman Recovery, allowing them to recover consequences spent on magic more quickly.

You bring up a variety of points. Care if I pick at your brain a bit?

When it comes to the stress vs consequences: by leaving the stress as-is, characters may be forced to take Consequences over smaller conflicts, which detracts from the heroic fantasy. While the Minor consequences heal quickly, it's those moderate ones that can leave you out for a bit. With more stress, a character can shrug off a bit more in a fight, have less of a chance for those consequences in a minor skirmish (still possible, though), and still be bruised up. If anything, perhaps a combination of the two would be in order? Minimum 3 stress, add another minor consequence (as they go away quickly enough)?

As for healing: a part of me is thinking of taking elements of Elaine's Reiki "spell" and the general theories of biomancy and tack it on to Sponsored Magic [Deity]. Keeping it base base Complexity 4 + Level of Consequence to be Lowered (2/4/6). Even a someone with a +5 relevant skill will be taking some pretty heavy mental backlash from this, not to mention the need to RP the debt with the sponsor. The Instant-Heal thing, or even resurrection in some settings, would be even bigger, meaning if a player is doing it, they may need to worry about how they'll manage it, and if it is placed at the feet of an NPC, there may be the need to expend Fate Points to "compel" the event to occur.

Again, just tossing ideas out there. Any other thoughts?

[mostlyawake]

I was contemplating the idea of the Nevernever, but the party is sticking to their guns for a D&D-esque game, so having it in another dimension of the modern world wouldn't exactly help the case.

There's nothing wrong with setting it our past, either, in whatever time and place you find interesting. If you visit the oft-referenced (for good reason) http://www.rickneal.ca/, you'll find that he did just that for his DFRPG game.  If you just say that there was a time when creatures from the nevernever felt free to cross over and cause chaos (before the white council solved it? before the accords?), you get a DnD style game pretty easily.

System-wise, you don't need to change much. Unless the players are all against "guns" on their sheet, you can leave it as it already covers archery. (there's a stunt for it, maybe?). Just make the stunt the default, and make them take a stunt to use guns if some type of flintlock or such is available in your era.  Scholarship can stay the exact same, just limit the knowledge and stunts to era-appropriate, and even drive can stay (wagons, boats, ect).  So nothing has to move at all.

As for your Fate Point for Evocation: I think it would be a rather steep cost, especially if they are going for a Rote spell or something that is only causing one point of stress. I don't have a solution for this just yet either, but a Submerged Wizard should be sitting on 4 Mental Stress, and possibly a second Mental Consequence, so I haven't seen a problem with it in theory (note I haven't had the chance to get a game off the ground, so everything on my end is just theory).

I wouldn't increase the cost of casting. You're already tapping an evoker out at 4 stress before he's "out of spells".  The solution to this is two-part:  one is when you change scenes (clearing stress tracks), the other is for evokers to take some potion slots and use those for easier, often used spells.   You don't really even need to increase stress tracks if you are cutting scenes more often (one battle doesn't have to equal one scene, even if it usually does in our minds.  I have cut-scene in the middle of a battle specifically to empty stress tracks for dramatic reasons).  This clears all stress tracks, so you lessen damage as well.  

Ultimately, if you go DnD-style, or if you have smart players, they'll get armor or armor spells, plus shield spells, and you'll be amazed at how much damage gets negated by that.

When it comes to the stress vs consequences: by leaving the stress as-is, characters may be forced to take Consequences over smaller conflicts, which detracts from the heroic fantasy. While the Minor consequences heal quickly, it's those moderate ones that can leave you out for a bit. With more stress, a character can shrug off a bit more in a fight, have less of a chance for those consequences in a minor skirmish (still possible, though), and still be bruised up. If anything, perhaps a combination of the two would be in order? Minimum 3 stress, add another minor consequence (as they go away quickly enough)?

If you feel it's necessary.  I run a pretty solid combat game with rules as written (RAW). The first extreme consequence finally happened, but it happened in the epic story-arc resolving battle. Again, I'd see what you can do with armor, shield spells, and scene cuts. Plus, adding healing....

As for healing: a part of me is thinking of taking elements of Elaine's Reiki "spell" and the general theories of biomancy and tack it on to Sponsored Magic [Deity]. Keeping it base base Complexity 4 + Level of Consequence to be Lowered (2/4/6). Even a someone with a +5 relevant skill will be taking some pretty heavy mental backlash from this, not to mention the need to RP the debt with the sponsor. The Instant-Heal thing, or even resurrection in some settings, would be even bigger, meaning if a player is doing it, they may need to worry about how they'll manage it, and if it is placed at the feet of an NPC, there may be the need to expend Fate Points to "compel" the event to occur.

Healing is actually really easy.  That person with sponsored biomancy gets four freaking focus slots. So discipline 5, conviction 5, and a "healing wand" of (+2 biomancy complexity, +2 biomancy control, make sure they have requisite lore for the bonus), plus usually the sponsor gives some bonus that for a healer you could call (+1 biomancy complexity, +1 biomancy control), gives them, with no refinement, a total of +8 biomancy complexity and control.  That's all at just -4 refresh for sponsored magic. That's your mild and moderate with no backlash (assuming an even roll).  AND, that's assuming you even USE it as evocation, which you aren't obligated to do.  Post battle? Say screw it, use regular thaumaturgy, pay no stress... or take the stress as it clears when you start the next scene. Mid battle? Run around the corner, throw a circle around your buddy, and thaumaturge it for no stress. Or use potions for it (buying refinement for crafting to up potion strength, and buttloads of potion slots).

Also, consider that the group "Tank" doesn't have to be a mortal wizard.  Call it a changeling, or a god-child, or w/e, give them inhuman toughness and recovery. Extra stress boxes, clears a mild consequence for free.. ect.  

-2 inhuman recovery, -2 inhuman toughness (catch, 0 points, "inherited silver arrow once owned by Achilles to the heel" or something equally hard to obtain), +5 endurance = good group tank at -4 level. Make the catch worth more to free up refresh to buy stunts (like an extra physical consequence).  Hell, put those powers on a suit of magic armor (giving a discount to them) and a catch of "A holy weapon wielded by a righteous man" and you could end up with them costing you only 1 refresh, or giving you a better level of protection.  PLUS you could, as the ST, "enchant" the armor so that it is armor 3 or 4 all the time.  Or, armor 6 three times a session, or whatever nonsense you want to add to your item of power.

Now, that does nothing about your wizard with no endurance, 2 physical stress boxes, and all... true.  But he's a wizard! In dnd, he could die from a cat fight if it went by hitpoints.  He needs to look elsewhere (other than system changes) for his protection.

Another quick example:
Evoker/Thaumaturge (specialize spirit control +1, specialize crafting item use +1) = -6 refresh
Lore 5, Conviction 5, discipline 4 (unless limited to max of 4 due to your power level i guess)
4 available focus item slots
crafting wand = +1 item power, +1 item use (2 slots)
2 open slots = 4 enchanted item slots
slot 1 = strength 6 shield three times a session
slot 2 = armor 3 three times a session
slot 3, 4 = open for character development OR increasing armor/shield use/power

That's a pretty basic protective set-up, using just the free stuff with your two types of magic.  Now if someone hits you for over 6 stress, you absorb 6 of the attack strength on the shield, then ignore 3 of the damage due to the armor... so if someone with an arrow (weapon 2?) shot you with 8 successes (they were a master +5 archer and rolled 3 pluses), 2 get through to add to damage, so 4 total stress, you ignore 3 of it, and you take 1 physical stress before you melt him into nothingness with your magiks.  You can go pretty toe to toe with a physical opponent (not a monster, though) and probably not hit consequences beyond mild before you've killed him.

[Drashna]

Armor. Seriously. Kevlar is Armor:2 against most physical stuff (IIRC).  That reduces the stress taken by a decent amount, which means you can take a lot more punishment.  Stack that with a wizard or two...  mostlyawake covers most of that stuff. Well.  And you could have the wizard(s) create a spell that armors the group and takes a mild consequence. And don't forget potions!

Also, an expended stress track doesn't mean killed. In fact, the designers mension a few times that it should *not* mean death unless it's a big time grudge:

As a rule of thumb, when death is on the line, announce it in advance, preferably at the start of the conflict—e.g., “This guy’s playing for keeps. If he can kill you, he will. You can see it in his eyes.” or “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.” That way everyone has plenty of time to see utter defeat coming and can keep an itchy finger on the concession trigger.

And another thing, one thing I hate about D&D, is that *everyone* plays for keeps. Meaning that no one concedes/forfeits. It's Victory or Death. Period.

But if they want combat heavy, make sure everyone is good on endurance and athletics!

As for archery/crossbows:

KKOther Projectile
Weapons
Guns
You can also use Guns to cover non-gun weapons that shoot at a distance, such as bows and other such artifacts, though usually with a penalty (–2) if you aren’t trained in their use. If, at the time you take the Guns skill, you decide your character is focused on using a method of shooting other than a gun, you may rename this skill to something more appropriate (e.g., Bows) and face the familiarity penalty when using actual guns instead. Under such an option, most Guns related stunts are available with the unusual weapon.

[babel2uk]

You could make the setting Earthdawn style. All of the player characters are magical adepts of some kind - which basically means give them a small amount of their refresh that can be used for Supernatural Powers. Effectively they would all have the Emissary of Power template but without the Marked by Power requirement - or the Minor Talent (with a slightly higher bar for the cost of powers).

Healing-wise the RAW will be somewhat of a let-down for anyone wanting a DnD style healing system, since Biomantic healing doesn't appreciably speed the process, just makes it possible. I'd agree with the idea of giving all characters an extra mild consequence, and leave it at that. You could also consider the idea of an Item of Power that takes a limited number of consequences on behalf of the character, up to a certain amount per scenario (or per session if you want to make combat less of a threat), but maybe with the limitation that the item can only take on the consequences after the combat.

Personally I prefer combat to be something of a threat within a game, and not something you should enter into lightly. If a combat doesn't threaten the characters, why bother with it. There's no reason the take-down in a combat has to be death - it makes for a much better game if it isn't, because that opens up the possibility of capture instead.

[adgramaine]

Also, I'm toying with the idea of allowing characters with Evocation to spend a Fate point instead of taking a point of stress when they cast an evocation spell. It would allow them to pump out a few more spells when they need to, but they'd also need to take those Compels in order to build up their FP supply.

I love this idea!   

Like mostlyawake mentioned, changing the setting slightly will do more for the 'feel' of the game than any mechanical alterations you may try. I have toyed around with a chronicle that takes place before the formation of the White Council, or at least before they were a credible power. Drop your players in the Dresdenverse's Dark Ages and presto - things get a lot more dangerous, and adventuring is much more par for course. You wouldn't even need to use the Nevernever, but if you did it'd be even more dangerous. Would there be more dragons? *shudder* Could Biomancy save folk from the Black Plague? *fingers crossed* And what if pre-White Council there were other groups of mages, each struggling to carve a place of their own out of the chaos. Maybe this is where the Black Council/Circle first started their plotting...? And that's just if you play in the European arena.... Just a few thoughts for ya.

[sinker]

Have you looked at Evil Hat's other FATE games? Spirit of The Century tends to be much more cinematic (I.E. Action-packed), whereas Dresden tends to be more gritty. You could always just import the spellcasting rules into SOTC and then run it in a fantasy universe.

[newtinmpls]

"And another thing, one thing I hate about D&D, is that *everyone* plays for keeps. Meaning that no one concedes/forfeits. It's Victory or Death. Period."

That all depends on the DM and the role players. In our games, there are negotiations, surrenders and so on - and this was true way back when everything was AD&D.

[Belial666]

[-1] DnD Wizardry - whoever takes this power prepares spells like a DnD wizard rather than a DFRPG evoker. For every mental stress box, they get to memorize 4 spells of that specific power. Those spells are replenished when the character does a longer rest such as when sleeping at night, not when other stress clears. The mental box is not used up; it is considered used up (in terms of other uses) when it has less than half its maximum spells remaining. Should the character use up the mental box in other uses (i.e. taking a mental attack) then he does not have access to those spells until the stress is cleared.
Special: DnD Wizardry can be taken multiple times. Each additional time increases the number of spells per stress box by one. The limit of times DnD Wizardry can be taken is your number of refinements +1, and DnD wizards do not take The Sight and Soulgaze.

[-1] DnD Hit Points - whoever takes this stunt has additional HP like a DnD character. Character with this stunt have two extra physical stress boxes. Those boxes can be used normally but like some supernatural toughness powers they have a catch; stress in them does not clear normally; it requires either an extended rest or a restorative evocation or thaumaturgy spell with shifts equal to the number of stress in the box.
Special: You can take this stunt one additional time for every 2 refresh above 8. Each additional time increases the extra stress boxes by 1.

[Quazar]

Instead of two stress boxes, I'd give all players an extra mild consequence, or perhaps two mild or even a mild and a moderate.  This will mean that there are still consequences after a fight, but the will tend to be less severe and therefore more quickly healed.

I'd do this to make it less squishy.  Everyone starts with +2 mild consequences in one of their stress tracks, or something like that.

[Motman]

[-1] DnD Wizardry
[-1] DnD Hit Points

HA! That is pretty good and funny.  I gets the flavor of hack&slash games while using Fate.  Would never use it, but it is still pretty good.

[Cyberchihuahua]

Some ideas for damage buffering.

Armor - give you an additional Physical stress track that functions like a PC's stress track.

Light Armor - (0)
Medium Armor - (00) plus Armor 1
Heavy Armor - (000) plus Armor 2

Armor may also take consequences, representing damage done. Chink in the Armor, Broken Strap, Crushed Visor, or Tangled all come to mind. If you allow extreme consequences, the armor would probably be permanently destroyed. Magic armor might provide better armor bonuses, or count against other types of stress, i.e. Dragon Scale Full Plate (Heavy) - (000) plus Armor 3, counts vs. fire.

The idea behind this is that you would gain some extra hits because of the armor, but they would be small hits. Just adding to a stress track doesn't just mean more hit points, but an exponential increase in WHAT can hit you and not kill you. Having a 7 point track might allow you to be hit by say a dragon, and your track resets after the encounter. Having two 3 point stress tracks means you might be able to leap into a 4 to 1 battle against a bunch of mooks and win, but the dragon will still eat you unless you take significant consequences. Granting the armor consequences also opens up potential scenes like in Aliens, where Hicks's armor gets eaten by acid, and he loses it mid adventure.

Shields - Provide bonuses to blocks only.

Regeneration - Each exchange, shift all of your stress boxes one to the left, i.e. (X00X) urns into (00X0)

Healing Potions and Spells - Might provide regeneration for a scene, might negate minor consequences. Very powerful potions or spells might downgrade a consequence one level.

Granting certain magic Items the ability to grant points in "mana" would give spellslingers more of a chance to fling lower power spells. A wand that knocks of one point of stress per exchange would mean a Wizard would always be able to toss around his Rote spells without tiring.