White Council Power Level Sorcerers

[Lirielle]

In the game I'm running, a couple of my players are playing wizards. Two of them started out as wizards hiding the extent of their skill for various reasons. Unfortunately, one of them got himself into a situation where it became clear he was wizard caliber - and then sold the other out for laughing at his misfortune. Neither are lawbreakers; they just didn't want to be a part of the Council. The setting I'm using allowed this for a time, but no longer. They both took wizard templates, so they understood I'd get them when I could.

At any rate, I've coerced them both into being wizards of the Council. However, they're both fighting me every step of the way, trying to find loopholes and ways out of it. Harry makes it pretty clear in the books that Council caliber wizards must belong to the Council, but he doesn't quite say (as far as I remember) what happens if you refuse. It's possible I missed this in the book, and if so, I'll feel rather silly, but the books are at home and i don't seem to remember. If you refuse, is that an automatic date with a sword? Or is it simply that you have no choice and they do what they must to convince you of your responsibilities?

[Tbora]

There is no punishment presumably the Warden's don't go snicker snack with there vorpel swords - they did not break any laws of magic after all.My guess is that the Warden's just start watching them super closely just looking for an excuse to go snicker snack ala Morgan was to Harry.

[Falar]

Don't look at punishment from the White Council.

Look at the lack of protection in the Accords.

Every other supernatural player is going to be attacking them and trying to get them on their side and the White Council will not give a damn.

[babel2uk]

This subject was discussed here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20636.15.html

My point of view is let them fight all they like. The Council is there for their protection. Not being a member, and being powerful enough to be a member generally puts you on the hit list of every other Supernatural faction, who either want to recruit you (willing or not) or kill you to stop others getting their hands on you. By comparison the price of Council Membership - don't break any of the Laws of Magic, generally attend meetings if it's convenient, represent the council in an official capacity if called upon to do so - is cheap. Especially when you consider that not only do you gain the protection of the Council under the Accords, but now have access to a massive amount of magical experience and lore. It's a carrot and stick situation. Work out which your players will respond best to.

[Lirielle]

Thanks!

[Bruce Coulson]

By that logic, any intervention by other supernatural groups towards non-members of the Council; such as minor talents; would be legal under the Accords.

This doesn't seem to fit the facts as presented in the books.  Granted, not much attention is spent on minor talents; but the White Council does seem able and willing to intervene, when they DO become aware of it.

Unless the Accords do let you have both ways ("you can protect and assume authority over those not powerful enough to be a member; but if they're powerful enough to be members and don't join, then they're fair game").  This is possible, I suppose...but it ignores the possibility of the formation of a non-signatory Group powerful enough to cause trouble.  That seems to be an omission I doubt Mab would make.

[Falar]

I'm confused - why is someone not signing up to be a member of the Accords a weakness to the Accords? Basically, you get more out of signing than you put in, unless you're expressly in the supernatural game to beat up other signatories.

[Bruce Coulson]

Well...no.  It's a trade-off; obviously there are SOME advantages to being a signatory to the Accords, or no one would do so.  But there's a down-side.  You have to obey the rules of the Accords, or suffer penalties (up to and including expulsion).  This constrains your actions to a degree; there are things you're not allowed to do under the Accords, even though those actions might be perfectly reasonable (and even praiseworthy).  Remeber, Harry nearly got sacrificed by the White Council for doing the right thing in defiance of the Accords.

Now, if you're NOT a signatory, you're not protected by those provisions; but you can do whatever you think you can get away with.  Worse, you could sign individual agreements/treaties, setting up a rival network to the Signatories.  I can't see Mab writing the Accords in a way where willful entities might feel themselves pushed into this kind of arrangement.

[Becq]

It's probably best to think about the situation using a city-state analogy along these lines:

The worldwide community of mortal magic users (including wizards, minor practicioners, and even sorcerors) is like a ancient city-state.
The White Council (ie, the inner Council) is the ruling oligarchy of the city-state.
The Wardens are the city's militia/police.
Other competing/hostile factions (Red Court, Denarians, etc) are other neighboring city-states.

The rulers (White Council) makes laws that all of the residents of the city (mortal practicioners) are expected to follow lest the militia (Wardens) be forced to step in and keep the peace (kill the offenders).  Said residents may or may not agree with the laws, or with the rulers' authority to make them.  This matters not in the slightest to the rulers, and they continue making laws and enforcing them through the miltia regardless.  Those who disobey are declared criminals (Warlocks, aka Warden-bait).  Crimes commited by residents of the city are dealt with.

The most powerful members of the city (Wizards) are granted full citizenship and are invited to attend city council meetings (meetings of the White Council), where their voice can be heard ... and possibly even listened to, with some luck.  This participation is optional and considered something of a perk, as opposed to the required obediance to the laws.  The common rabble (minor practitioners and other non-Wizards) are serfs/slaves/freemen and are not considered 'citizens', are not generally invited to attend, but (as mentioned before) must obey the laws regardless.

Occasionally, the city's residents might suffer at the hands of members of other (possibly hostile) neighboring city-states (other supernatural factions) -- either in isolated attacks or sabatage or through outright war.  In such cases, the rulers and militia protect the city-state by means they deem fitting.  In the case of 'rogue' elements from otherwise 'friendly' neighboring city-states (Accord members), they might negotiate a settlement.  In the case of outright war, the citizenry (Wizards) are expected to join the militia whether the want to or not, and whether they attended the meetings or not.

I think that kind of covers the situation.  The key bits are that if you are a Wizard-class practitioner, you ARE a member of the White Council and subject to its laws, whether you like it or not, and if you are a non-Wizard mortal magic-user, you ARE subject to laws without a say.  You can try to avoid the political BS all you want, but if you break the rules, the Wardens might well take an interest in you, and ignorance is not a viable excuse.

[Bruce Coulson]

That's probably a good summation.  The White Council requires you to follow the laws if you're a mortal practicioner.  They may consider you a member if you're powerful enough, whether you think so or not.  (You have to follow the rules, member or not, so it really doesn't make that much difference.)

The key problem is; "Can the White Council demand your service?"  With minor talents, the Council doesn't even bother to ask; what could THEY do, anyway?  It gets more problematic with wizard-level talents.  For one thing, people who don't vote don't upset the status quo.  Dragging them into service means they might start showing up and causing a fuss, and if you drafted them in, you really can't easily throw them out afterwards.

The current situation makes things even more hectic.  If you absolutely have to have every talent, you're going to drag them in or kill them.  But then you're stuck with them, and they may decide to vote you out when it's all done.

[Becq]

The key problem is; "Can the White Council demand your service?"  With minor talents, the Council doesn't even bother to ask; what could THEY do, anyway?  It gets more problematic with wizard-level talents.  For one thing, people who don't vote don't upset the status quo.  Dragging them into service means they might start showing up and causing a fuss, and if you drafted them in, you really can't easily throw them out afterwards.

The White Council is highly ego-centric.  They don't offer training to anyone who doesn't qualify as full Wizard because they are too weak to be worthwhile.  Then, if there's some sort of emergency which would make a few extra warm bodies useful regardless of power level ... well, the sub-Wizards are too untrained to be worthwhile.

As to Wizards, I think that the White Council assumes that since the Council exists for the benefit of Wizardry (which is clearly the case; just ask Harry), obviously every Wizard will want to do their part.  So it's not a demand as such; they just make the request assuming that the requestee will jump at the opportunity to be of use.  They seem utterly shocked when some two-bit Wizard-who-shall-not-be-named actually seems disinclined to kowtow to their whim.

I think that if someone flatly refused, then that individual would find themselves on a list of like-minded Wizards somewhere in the Council archives, labelled "Dangerously subversive; possible Warlock tendencies".  They would then be find Wardens looking over their shoulder whenever one could be spared.

[toturi]

That seems to be an omission I doubt Mab would make.

That seems to be an omission I think Mab would deliberately make.

[Todjaeger]

Unless the Accords do let you have both ways ("you can protect and assume authority over those not powerful enough to be a member; but if they're powerful enough to be members and don't join, then they're fair game").  This is possible, I suppose...but it ignores the possibility of the formation of a non-signatory Group powerful enough to cause trouble.  That seems to be an omission I doubt Mab would make.

The Accords also allows for Freeholding Lords.  These are essentially individuals or small groups with enough individual or collective power to be a significant threat to other groups within the supernatural community, but still fall short of the collective 'weight' that the White Council, Summer or Winter Courts, or any of the Vampire Courts possess.  The Denarians, Archive and Monoc Securities are all examples of Freeholding Lords and if I remember the books correctly, there is also supposed to be a Dragon or two who are Freeholding Lords, a Ukrainian shapeshifter, and a few others (about 20 total).  Some of the groups which might possibly have sufficient power to become a Freeholding Lord apparently often don't want to, since it can expose them to supernatural politics and then the group(s) would have to abide by the Accords and provide neutral arbitration if called to do so, etc.  Between those obligations as well as the fact that a Freeholding Lord is a potential target for larger supernatural powers, there would need to be sufficient reason for someone to wish to do so.

In terms of the White Council area of interest, Becq did a pretty good job covering it.  The White Council essentially polices mortal practioners.  Whether they know of or wish to abide by the White Council's rules and the Laws of Magic or not.  Being granted the title of Wizard by the White Council means that a practioner is powerful/versatile enough to work with the full range of magic, and is knowledgeable about it.  It also means that the practioner is able to participate in White Council activities, attend and vote at meetings, etc.  The downside is that the practioner might occasionally be called upon to represent the White Council at times, and the practioner could also become a (more obvious) target for the enemies of the White Council.

[Lirielle]

My players mostly want to be difficult, I think, sometimes.

Two of them have valid reasons to not want to be part of the White Council; the third, I think, just wanted to be different but it didn't work out so well.

I believe, too, that the example of a certain female wizard associated with Harry Dresden who does not want the White Council to notice her serves as a sort of example. I'm not sure. We're working it out to see how it goes, but I think that at least one of them is seeing the merits of joining. Another is now getting a Warden paycheck on top of everything else, so you know. Money talks.

[Bruce Coulson]

That seems to be an omission I think Mab would deliberately make.

Not really.  It would allow for the possible formation of a rival group; one that might be organized more fairly and with less legalese (it would be hard to add more....  If you're a manipulator, the LAST thing you want is for people to start leaving the game.  That's why Mab offers the Freeholding option; it keeps people in the game of the Accords.

Besides, it would be more 'fun' to make the White Council (and similar groups, but mortals are the most perverse lot) be responsible for the actions of people under the Accords, even if they weren't formally members of the Council.  That puts the onus of getting talents who don't want to be a part of things on the White Council; making them the 'bad guys'.