Blessed Bullets???

[Oriande]

Well, my players have correctly concluded that their next antagonist is demonic in nature and are making plans and preparations.  What caught me by surprise was when one of them informed me that he would bless four magazines of rounds for various firearms.   I’m not sure how to respond to this.  The character is a True Believer and I have previously allowed him to bless water (making holy water) using traditional prayers.  They have also encountered a saint’s medallion and a blessed silver crucifix, so these things do exist. But, I am not sure how I want to handle the issue of bullets or other mundane (i.e. no refresh cost) weapons. 
Perhaps if he wanted to get a set of etching tools and engrave the Seal of Solomon on each of them, I would find that a more reasonable idea/investment.  So, at the risk of sparking a lengthy religious debate, I don't need to know so much where God stands on the issue of bullets as what I should  allow in a case like this? 

[MijRai]

By bless, does he mean dip in holy water? I was actually thinking about something like this lately. I'd say it could work as an aspect though. Be able to Compell something on the demons' high concepts, not run it as damage.

[Becq]

To be honest, the only real answer is "it's up to you as GM, and to your group".  That said, here are my thoughts on it, based on a combination of "What I think ought to work" and game balance.

* It's reasonable for a true believer to make holy water.  However, holy water should probably only work if the 'attack' largely consists of holy water.  By this, I mean that if you try to coat a weapon with it -- either a sword or a bullet -- it won't work (or at least won't work fully), whereas a water balloon or a paint-ball gun might well work.  Holy water works on faith, and splashing it on a sword shows that your faith is really in the sword, not the water.  And in any case, the water would be too dilute, even were this not the case.

* Even if by means other than dipping in holy water, I think it would not be a good idea to allow wholesale blessing of arsenals of weaponry, for balance reasons.  Your idea of engraving each bullet individually is a start, but even if you allowed that you need to put some sort of limit on it.

* One possibility is to modify the enchanted item system to represent this -- that is, allow the True Believer to buy "Refinements" for his faith powers, granting "Blessed Item" slots.  Use Conviction instead of Lore for the base strength.  A blessed bullet might take the form of a 'maneuver' placing the aspect 'Blessed' on the attack.  This aspect wouldn't get a free tag to get a +2 on the attack, but instead would count as a free invoke for effect: ie, the attack counts as holy damage.  So a character with a five Conviction could use a single slot to make three Blessed Bullets (per session), based on using three points of 'strength' for the maneuver and converting the other two strength to additional uses.  (I think I'm doing that correctly.)  Using all four slots granted by a level of Refinement (costing -1 refresh) would allow for twelve bullets to be blessed per session.

* Another possibility might involve using a stunt like Blessed Words.  You might allow the character to use that stunt (or a new stunt specifically for this purpose) to bless a weapon, giving it the aspect "Blessed" for a scene or two.  As above, this would give a single free invoke to cause an attack to inflict holy damage (no bonus, though).  In addition, the wielder could spend Fate to invoke it further.

* If you're still of the opinion that this gives too much away, you might say that the creating of blessed items falls into the realm of a Sponsored Magic power, which would allow the character to use Prayers (ie, Holy Thaumaturgy) to do stuff, including blessings of fvarious sorts.

Anything in here sound workable?

[Belial666]

A weapon to be "holy", if it is not a traditionally holy object such as holy water, is a -1 refresh power such as the "holy" ability of the swords of the cross or the "holy touch" ability of a champion of faith. Since people with magic cannot give someone a refresh-costing power for free, I don't see why any priest would be able to make a non-holy weapon into holy.

Also, keep in mind that there's a difference between "holy stuff", which is the catch of vampires and minor demons, and holy powers and genuine faith, which is the catch for powerful demons and outsiders. A vampire will run screaming from a cross or if you hit it with holy water. A greater demon or Outsider will eat you along with the cross unless you have some actual holy powers.


Basically it all comes down to this; if it is a +3 catch or more such as for some vampires, it means anyone could find it if they tried (+2) and it is researchable (+1). If it is a +2 catch, then only few people would have access to it (+1) and it is researchable (+1).  If it is in the first category, a cross, prayers and holy water would work just fine - and maybe a true believer blessing a weapon. If it is in the second category, a cross, prayers and holy water would not work - and blessing a weapon would fail either. A true believer with faith powers would have to satisfy the catch directly.

[Richard_Chilton]

So I googled blessing weapons, and found:
http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/the-church-reminds-us-that-the-blessing-of-weapons-does-not-contradict-the-commandment-%E2%80%9Cthou-shalt-not-murder%E2%80%9D/

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RwlQw5v7rcQJ:forums.catholic.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D266577+blessing+weapons&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16173

So there are various real world blessings for weapons.

Personally I would require that a blessed bullet (gun, sword) be treated with respect and reverence.  Part of the divine has entered it and therefore the bullet should be treated as if it was a holy.  If they were treated as common bullets then that would begin to undermine the priests beliefs.

It's like how very few priests would agree to bless a barrow of holy water - they don't want holy water to be misused, mocked, desanctified, deconsecrated, desacralized, defiled, desecrated, profaned, or in any have it's holiness violated.  If someone is treating blessed weapons like something out of D&D then he doesn't have the priestly mindset.

Richard

[Haru]

I don't think a simple "blablabless, now the bullets are holy" should be enough. You could treat this as a challenge (YS324) with a high enough difficulty. This would make it more or less a holy thaumaturgy ritual. You could argue, that they would need at least silver bullets to bless, they have to make them themselves, or - as you said yourself - engrave a religious symbol on the bullets or all of the above and more. Otherwise a catch like "holy" would be really dull, as any priest might just bless a toothpick and kill the demon with it.

Holy templates are all about conviction, I think, so that should play a role in creating a weapon. Creating a single bullet to kill a specific demon should take a while and maybe even cost a small fortune or a huge personal sacrifice, but that would create an imprint of the creators conviction on the bullet, making it powerful enough to kill the demon with one strike or else stealing it's toughness powers so it can be killed like anything else. Mass-blessing anything is not in line with a True Believer in my opinion.
Unless maybe it is something like a watertower that is about to be thrown at the big evil demon, but that is epic enough on its own to justify it.

[Becq]

Here's some possibly useful text from OW30:

"Holy Objects and Faith: While usually kind of “iffy,” no one can deny the utility of a fifty gallon drum of holy water against a plethora of nasties. Prayer shawls, beads, mats; bell, book, and candle; cross, crescent, Star of David, pentacle, Thor’s Hammer; a big old Bible/Vedas/Sutras/Talmud/Koran; almost any sort of religious item, when held by a true believer, can really help out. But that’s the rub: while a few objects retain an aura of faith power in and of themselves (like holy water, a saint’s relic, that sort of thing),
most only focus and enhance the inherent faith of the person. If said person doesn’t believe in the power represented by the object, it will have no effect. The flagship items in this vein are the Swords—Amoracchius, Esperacchius, and Fidelacchius—which magnify the faith of their wielders a thousandfold."

So, to summarize, most items that count as "holy" are either mundane religeous items that are wielded by people with True Faith, or are artifacts of faith (ie, IoPs).  Holy water stands out as an exception to the rest of the list, being a fairly mundane item that carries a persistent aura of faith.  Then again, water is very symbolically significant in Christian faith, so perhaps that gives it a pass.  It's hard to justify a bullet earning a place on this list, though.

[toturi]

I think it may better to empower the players on how they wish to do deal with such an issue and run with it. Afterall, if my players like the concept of the holy man blessing their weapons and doing battle with the forces of darkness with them, then I would allow them to do so.

[babel2uk]

I think it may better to empower the players on how they wish to do deal with such an issue and run with it. Afterall, if my players like the concept of the holy man blessing their weapons and doing battle with the forces of darkness with them, then I would allow them to do so.

You'd be opening yourself up to allowing the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." _{Monty Python and the Holy Grail}

[Tbora]

You'd be opening yourself up to allowing the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." _{Monty Python and the Holy Grail}

And what is wrong with that?

[babel2uk]

And what is wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing, as long as you don't count to 4....

[Trenton Thomas]

Obviously, as previously mentioned, it would be your call.  It is, after all, your game.  My thoughts on the matter would be that he could bless some bullets.  However, it would be a long ritual (a full week of soaking in holy water, prayers, incense, what have you), would require special "ingredients" (such as the silver bullet idea mentioned, silver being another item of purity), would require the special markings previously mentioned and would definitely not be something he could throw together in a pinch.  Should he try this process with anything other than a bullet, I'd still make it a one use item.  He'd have to be a full fledged Saint or something and die using it valiantly or for the rest of his life for it to gain any lasting benefits.

[mostlyawake]

Just chiming in to agree with it just being an aspect on the item.

The first free tag takes care of the bullet (which is gone after one use). While the extra +2 doesn't actually help with toughness, it provides enough of a bonus (you get to use the +2 to hit with, as your roll is the attack roll, and then that rolls into damage) that i'd feel okay with it. 

On a sword or the like, it's just giving one thematic bonus to the fight.  It's not truly representative of a blade blessed for a battle (which would affect every swing), but it's enough in game-terms to act as a bonus for something that is essentially a non-action for the character (it's taking him what, 5 seconds to bless the sword, and no resources?)

Another idea is to have him state the time that he wants to spend blessing a longer-use item (like a sword), and for how many extra amounts of time he spends, give him that many free tags on the item.  For instance, if you ruled that it takes 15 mins to bless the sword (completely arbitrary), then every 15 mins he gets an extra free tag.  Just beware that he could then spend 4 hours, add 16 tags, and add 32 dice to some role - enough to kill almost anything outright, as there is no limit to how many of those tags he can use at once.  A better way to do that might to be starting with instant (1 free tag), then moving up the time scale for each extra tag, making only 8 tags or so reasonable.

[fishscribbles]

Here's an alternate point of view that might upset some folks, please bear with me:

At various points in the series, Michael and others say that their mission is not to kill Denarians or fight evil directly.  The Knights of the Cross are empowered to help redeem the hosts of the Fallen and their mission is to bring as many souls back to the light as they can.

If you look at the items that are generally "holy" you see a lot of ritual objects used in prayer and symbols that reflect the faith of the bearer.  Even a sword itself is shaped like a cross.  But more to the point, they're all objects that can be used up close and personal, either through conversation and sermon or, in the case of the swords, in close melee combat.  This gives the wielder of the item of faith the opportunity to confront the evil and try to get them to repent.  In the case of a Denarian, they have the opportunity to convince the host to give up the coin and free themselves of the Fallen's influence.

Keep in mind the names of the swords of the Cross:  Faith, Hope and Love.  The fight isn't about destroying evil, it's about protecting and saving humanity.  The tenets of True Belief are Mercy, Compassion and Forgiveness, which is why a character like Sanya can exist at all.  And the powers required by the True Believer template focus on protection and guidance.  It's the Champions that get the "Smiting" abilities, and that's because they inherently have natures that make it unlikely for them to abuse them.  Remember, the true test of faith is not whether you can destroy evil, but whether you can reject its temptation and guide others to do the same by your example.

You defeat that whole premise when you can take someone out from a rooftop with a gun, or from the end of an alley without ever confronting them.  Sure, some guns you might need to get a lot closer (holy, sawed-off shotgun, yikes!), but while using a gun may not completely eliminate that moment for redemption, it's going to cut the probability way down.

Having said all that, I really like the image of a dedicated faithful working for days at a time to craft bullets, engraving holy symbols and true names and the like on them, to empower them with his faith to fight a specific foe.  I don't think a magazine full of bullets is really in the spirit of faith, but maybe a bullet designed for a specific foe, or even a six-shooter's worth, where you have to actually confront the foe in a Wild West style shootout before discharging the gun at them would make for a really good scene.  I also like the idea of holy bullets putting an aspect on a baddie that would allow a compel against the high concept making for a potentially amazing reveal scene.

[Kaldra]

Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

and thus the preacher has spoken thank you wiki quotes