Author Topic: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series  (Read 7112 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2009, 03:26:36 AM »
My way of writing this is that I want to overdo it. Write more than I need to, because I know I'm going/have to change or edit out stuff, so I lose nothing in the long run if I give myself some slack on the rope (which feels like it's around my neck most nights)

What you risk losing is focus; diluting your story too much and not being able to concetrate it again, uinless you are really good at editing and bad at writing first draft.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Uilos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3537
  • The Snark Side of the Force
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2009, 03:27:47 AM »
That last bit is me, all the way :D
Quote from: Shecky
It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire 'tude, the lips acquire mouthiness, the glares become a warning. It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2009, 03:33:36 AM »
That last bit is me, all the way :D

Trick for learning to get around that ?

Take a tape of your favourite songs, and write each one as a short story. Tight and pared down, and do odd things with the viewpoint.

(This works better if you like Leonard Cohen that the Spice Girls).
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline seekmore

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3002
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2009, 04:02:23 AM »
(This works better if you like Leonard Cohen that the Spice Girls).

What?

You don't like the musical styling of Mel B, Mel C, Emma, Geri, and Victoria?

Stop right now! Thank you very much! I need somebody with a human touch!

If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends

Because tonight is the night when 2 become 1

Never give up on the good times, believe in the love you find

Slam it to the left, if you're having a good time. Shake it to the right, if you know that you feel fine.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant  Robert McCloskey

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel  Maya Angelou

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2009, 03:12:16 PM »
You don't like the musical styling of Mel B, Mel C, Emma, Geri, and Victoria?

The only thing that even partially justifies their existence is this:

http://www.emp3world.com/mp3/34270/Nin%20&%20Spice%20Girls/%20Closer%20To%20Spice

(NWS for language.)
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline seekmore

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3002
    • View Profile
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant  Robert McCloskey

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel  Maya Angelou

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2009, 05:05:02 PM »
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2009, 05:17:31 PM »
Getting back on topic, another thought about the epic scale that may be relevant;

Epic scale stories tend to have a lot of things going on in them.  There are pacing concerns involved with this.

Suppose you have eight or nine major plot strands.  If you are going to give each of them equal time, it means that in a hundred-thousand-word volume (which is about as big as individual volumes get these days outside of exceptional circumstances, and most of us aren't Susannah Clarke) each of them will only get a bit over ten thousand words.  So one failure mode here is it feeling like the book is going on and on and on with not enough to be interesting happening in any one thread.  (Another failure mode is some threads just being dull and people being annoyed every time they show up, but that;s not one that structure hacking fixes.)  Examples of such in the epic-fantasy mode are left as a fairly easy exercise for the reader.

The other option there is for each significant chunk, volume, call it what you will, to focus primarily on one or a few threads and background or leave out the others.  Do this wrong and readers get bored and miss characters they care about, or worst-case have forgotten what they're meant to care about when they get back to it. Do it right and you can use it to build tension.  If Sarah and John separate to go on different missions and your readers will be stuck with Sarah for the next hundred pages, her worrying about John every now and again or being reminded of him by something happening he would have appreciated being there for can help keep John in the readers' mind.

An example I would suggest of doing this right is Dead Beat.  Dead Beat mostly has its own necromancers-gone-wild plot, and some other story arcs like Mavra feed into it directly.  But there's also an appearance by Johnny Marcone, which fits in with the book-scale plot though it's not a major element  of it, but also serves to advance things with Marcone and Gard and give us a somewhat more overt clue than we have seen before about Gard being an actual Valkyrie, and sets up Marcone owing fro having interfered with where Harry was supposed to die; and Mab's appearance when Harry is expecting Lea advances the whole "something rotten in the state of Faerie" series-scale plot thread quite a bit in ways thatdo not directly connect to the book-scale plot, but that keep us as readers aware that this is still happening and still important.  Jim is really good at weaving these things in to books that are mostly about something else.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline seekmore

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3002
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2009, 05:43:16 PM »
Sounds good.

Just so no one thinks I just came her to derail the thread:

Neurovore's suggestion is a variant of what I am doing, as I am also plotting a series on an epic scale.

I plotted out my first book roughly, and then took three or four points of the plot and reshaped them so that they also will serve as foreshadowing/unresolved points for future use. I'm currently engaged in finishing all relevant world-building, and figuring out exactly what smaller details I need to keep in mind for this book so that the plot flows directly into the sequel without missing anything. These I will put in a list that I keep in a separate file that I will keep open while I am writing.

I've also created character sheets for my four main characters that gives an in-depth look at them prior to the start of book one. It serves as quick and easy reference guide for both looks and personality. It includes major events in their backstories, also. As I plot and write each book I will update it to show things I have already included as well as significant changes in their lives.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant  Robert McCloskey

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel  Maya Angelou

Offline kingaling

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 306
  • THE VOICES ARENT REAL, but have some good ideas
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2009, 05:48:40 PM »
One of the ways I'm thinking of combatting the pacing issues (as there are tons of plot threads) was to have the plots introduced and seemingly end in their individual stories, but have them continue in plain sight without it being too aware, while focusing on the main plot and a few subplots.
Son of Blampira and father to the vampire in her sig.

"It's good to be King." - Mel Brooks

"I have an idea! An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2009, 06:07:56 PM »
I've also created character sheets for my four main characters that gives an in-depth look at them prior to the start of book one. It serves as quick and easy reference guide for both looks and personality. It includes major events in their backstories, also. As I plot and write each book I will update it to show things I have already included as well as significant changes in their lives.

I get really kind of twitchy about this as a working method, because it so does not work for me; if it works for you, fine, but I've seen rather many people push it as The Only Way To Do Things.

What happens for me is, the more I know about someone before the story starts, the less motivation I have to tell the story, because finding this stuff out is part of what keeps me writing.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline seekmore

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3002
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2009, 06:19:45 PM »
I get really kind of twitchy about this as a working method, because it so does not work for me; if it works for you, fine, but I've seen rather many people push it as The Only Way To Do Things.

What happens for me is, the more I know about someone before the story starts, the less motivation I have to tell the story, because finding this stuff out is part of what keeps me writing.

Meh, everyone has their own way of doing things. Why would I push my way, when I haven't even succeeded with it? And even then, there are countless others who have succeeded using a different method.

I guess I should have stated that right now, my sections involving backstory only include the significant bits that set the story into motion. For instance, one character killed a man and was subsequently thrown out of his nomadic tribe. Another must act as warden/caretaker for younger character during a probationary period set by a judge, so the trial that led to that verdict and meeting that led to that sentence are in their backstories.The fourth character is significantly older than the other, but his backstory is empty because none of it is relevant to the plot at hand.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant  Robert McCloskey

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel  Maya Angelou

Offline kingaling

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 306
  • THE VOICES ARENT REAL, but have some good ideas
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2009, 06:26:47 PM »
For me it helps me to already know who I'm writing about. To know everything really. The more I know, the more there is, and the more there is then the less I have to write blindly discovering things. I have a problem with writing not knowing everything I possibly can. If I don't know a lot about the place or the characters, then I just don't feel like writing. I'm aiming to have the entire plot nailed down before I begin writing my first draft. And upon the reviews of my first draft, I'll change what needs to be.
Son of Blampira and father to the vampire in her sig.

"It's good to be King." - Mel Brooks

"I have an idea! An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin

Offline seekmore

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3002
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2009, 06:32:01 PM »
For me it helps me to already know who I'm writing about. To know everything really. The more I know, the more there is, and the more there is then the less I have to write blindly discovering things. I have a problem with writing not knowing everything I possibly can. If I don't know a lot about the place or the characters, then I just don't feel like writing. I'm aiming to have the entire plot nailed down before I begin writing my first draft. And upon the reviews of my first draft, I'll change what needs to be.

I'm kind of split between you and neurovore.

I want to know a lot, but if I know everything, it's suddenly boring to me.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant  Robert McCloskey

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel  Maya Angelou

Offline kingaling

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 306
  • THE VOICES ARENT REAL, but have some good ideas
    • View Profile
Re: Question on Plotting out epic scale book series
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2009, 06:42:23 PM »
Nothing about creating a story is boring to me, it's mostly about keeping my motivation. I'm hard to motivate to do anything, but when I get there you can't stop me. There are certain types of writing that keep me going and then there are those that don't.

Anyway, any more tips people?
Son of Blampira and father to the vampire in her sig.

"It's good to be King." - Mel Brooks

"I have an idea! An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." - Peter Griffin