Can enchanted items generate Thaumaturgy effects?

[Richard_Chilton]

Just wondering if an enchanted item could generate a thaumaturgy effect.

Something someone making a master voodoo doll so that all he has to do is wrap a new victim's hair on it and bam!

Maybe a cursing stone that when you rub it and look at someone you inflict a predetermined (set when the item was made) mild (or moderate) consequence.  It would basically be like casting the spell with all the prep work done and doing it in one draw.

For some reason I'm thinking of someone walking around with three 'cursing' items.
- one that inflects the mild physical consequence of 'sore arm'
- one that inflects the mild mental consequence of 'thinking about a crossover between B5 and Voyager"
- one that inflects the mild social consequence of "looks stoned"
each with 15 shifts and effectively casting those Thaumaturgy spells on the fly.

Richard

[Becq]

I was initially going to say 'no', but I checked and found this:

"Nearly any effect within the range of thaumaturgy or evocation is allowed (though evocation tends to be easier because the amount of power involved is usually comparatively small)" (YS279)

So it seems you can duplicate thaumaturgical effects.  However, consider also:

"Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage." (YS280)

This will effectively prevent those specific examples you gave, unless you have Legendary+ Lore (even the Merlin couldn't enchant more than a 12 shift item).  Note there is an exception, but I don't know what rationale would be good enough, or how hefty the baggage should be...

The number of item slots it would take is staggering, as well, at +1 strength per slot.

[Richard_Chilton]

Ah - it was there and I missed it.  I'm going to have to give the magic rules a much closer read.

This means assigning mild consequences is out (the numbers are too high), but there would be a way of doing it if you relied on luck and were just assigning aspects...

Say a "curse" that uses a maneuver to temporary tag someone.  Give it a power of 4 - and you hope that people roll bad on their Conviction rolls to resist...  You could carry an object that produce a single predetermined "short term curse or minor glamor".  It wouldn't be that much more effective than you casting the spell yourself but activating it would be less noticeable.

Thanks for the help!

Richard

[Becq]

This means assigning mild consequences is out (the numbers are too high), but there would be a way of doing it if you relied on luck and were just assigning aspects...

Say a "curse" that uses a maneuver to temporary tag someone.  Give it a power of 4 - and you hope that people roll bad on their Conviction rolls to resist...  You could carry an object that produce a single predetermined "short term curse or minor glamor".  It wouldn't be that much more effective than you casting the spell yourself but activating it would be less noticeable.

I think the key is that you might not be able to pump in enough shifts to *guarantee* that it will work on someone with a resistance skill of 5 and a roll of +4.  So you might end up making an opposed test to see if it worked this time.  I think that's legitimate...

[Richard_Chilton]

In theory it would just like someone making an off the cuff curse - something like Dresden does with his tracking spell - but limited to a single predetermine result.  Someone with thaumaturgy could, in theory, sit muttering on a park bench casting minor curses at everyone he saw and hoping that they rolled low on their resistances.

It would probably be a waste of a slot to make an item like this, but I could see it fitting in with a character's motif.

Richard

[rickayelm]

You cna make potions that have the more powerfull thaumaturgic effects, under their description on ys.280, it says "Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effect strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly or at the time it is created with the invocation of aspects. each invocation allows the potions strength to be increased by 2." So a base strength of your lore, up to twice your lore from specializations, foci, or using multiple slots for the potion then adding two for each invocation of aspects, this would allow you to get a decent number of shifts in. You couldn't make a super ritual into a potion, but you should be able to make most of the more commonly used thaumaturgical effects as potions. In the sidebar Bob is talking about making a major entropy curse potion.

[Becq]

So a base strength of your lore, up to twice your lore from specializations, foci, or using multiple slots for the potion then adding two for each invocation of aspects, this would allow you to get a decent number of shifts in.

I disagree with your conclusion:
"Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating"

[Belial666]

Potions can exceed twice your Lore because instead of increasing their casting strength, you can boost them on the fly with invocation of aspects.

[rickayelm]

I disagree with your conclusion:
"Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating"

The rules for potions specifically say that unlike normal enchanted items they can be empowered further through the invocation of aspects.

[Becq]

The rules for potions specifically say that unlike normal enchanted items they can be empowered further through the invocation of aspects.

It does not say "boosted further", it says "boosted on the fly".  The difference is that potion slots have more flexibility, not a greater strength cap.  Whereas with enchanted items, you can combine slots at creation time to boost the item's strength (up to a maximum of double your Lore), with potions you are allowed to create them on the fly, combining slots or invoking aspects if needed or desired to boost the potion's effects (up to a maximum of double you Lore).

Of course, you can always feel free to change this if you want potions to have unlimited strength; the limit was put in there for balance reasons.  Otherwise people would just generate a couple dozen aspects via maneuevers, declarations, etc, then pop out their 30-shift "Nuke in a Bottle" potion that they just happened to prepare that morning (Fate point!)