Trying to handle a multiple Evocation problem

[Fenrir423]

Basically, I have two people who want to have Evocation as part of their power set. Problem is, one is worried that since he's a wizard and magic is his bread and butter, he'll get outshined and become the thaumaturgy guy. I personally don't think it will be an issue since Evocation is pretty much a combat only thing, but that argument isn't making my player feel at ease (and we haven't actually played so I have no idea if that's even a valid argument). I don't want to play favorites, or make both of them trash their characters completely, and I can't think of anything to tell them to make them get over it. Any suggestions, oh wise ones?

[DFJunkie]

Well, as a GM you'd be well within your rights to limit the number of Refinements that the other Evocator can take to one less than your Wizard PC does.  After all, Wizards are the class act when it comes to spellcasting, and at least on the level that the characters are playing (presumably submerged) no one should be better than a White Counsel Wizard.

[Becq]

Has it occured to the Wizard yet that while the part-time spellslinger tops out at one Refinement, the Wizard can (eventually) get as many as he wants?  Heck, he can *start* with two Evocation Refinements, making him more powerful to start and will have greater long-term potential, as well.  Add to that the fact that out of the gate the Wizard will have four focus item slots to the Sorceror's two (further increasing relative spellcasting strength via focii, or versatility via enchanted items and/or potions).  And in the magical community, being a Wizard will have a tendency to garner more respect than being a mere hedge magicker.

Just a few thoughts.  Yes, there will be some overlap.  Both will be able to toss fireballs (or the equivalent) at their foes.  But the Wizard will have greater magical depth.  The Sorceror, on the other hand, may have other tricks on his sheet to make him special, as well, but in different ways.

As a suggestion, you might consider recommending that they choose different elements as their specialties.  This is largely a flavor-text solution, but might help to emphasize their differences.

[wyvern]

Honestly, the biggest thing to look for here is skill levels.  If the wizard has discipline and conviction 5, he's going to totally outshine a focused practitioner with discipline and conviction 3.  Refinement is great and all, but even for a submerged game, you can't start with much of it.

On the other hand, if they've put their skills the other way around, and the wizard is relying on aspects and focus items to make up the difference, then you might have something to worry about.

I would not suggest trying to limit the skill levels available to the non-wizard caster; if they've both got high spellcasting skills, use one of the other suggestions here to make sure they aren't stepping on each other's toes too much.  But if the focused practitioner does have lower skill levels, then you can use that to help alleviate the wizard's player's worries.  And if the wizard hasn't put at least one of conviction or discipline at the top of his skill stack, that's something you might want to suggest he do.

[luminos]

First things first:  Is the non-wizard caster aware of the wizards concerns?  If not, then the first step has absolutely nothing to do with the game.  The first step is sit both of them down and mediate a discussion between the two of them about it, to see if they come up with a mutually agreeable solution by themselves.

Second step:  If the first step doesn't fix everything (if they have trouble thinking of a compromise), then emphasize aspects.  Emphasize them big time.  The best way to differentiate two characters with similar abilities is through aspects, and they do this job extremely well when used correctly.

Third step:  Point out that wizards can get more refinements than non-wizards

If these don't work, then DO NOT fix the problem with a ruling on who can play what type of character.  If all the previous things failed, you have a problem between people, not characters, and ruling on the game will not solve, but exacerbate these problems.  Go back to step one, and use your role as mediator to actively figure out what the core of the problem is, and help them find a solution.

[Haru]

The game is not only about big fights, so I don't see being "the thaumaturgy guy" as that big a problem. There is no limit on what you can do with thaumaturgy, even on short notice, evocation can't even begin to compare to that. Plus, as Harry always points out, it is about preparation. You can take some enchanted item slots and create things like Harry's kinetic rings to give you some extra power in a fight, and you will still have a lot more left in you once the other evocator has slung his last spell.

On the other hand, it is up to him how he sets the focus on his wizard. For evocation and thaumaturgy combined he got 4 focus item slots, put them all in evocation (might not be possible, but it's still 2 slots then), get more refinement on evocation and you can get a whole lot done. Of course then you are more of a combat wizard, but that seems to be the way your player wants to go.

Maybe in the first adventure, try to find some ways to give thaumaturgy a greater value, so the "real" wizard can shine without resorting to evocation only. Because thaumaturgy is what makes a real wizard, in my opinion. It does not only have to be search spells or things like that, there are a lot of ways to get creative. And of course as mentioned above: preparation with thaumaturgy will trump evocation every time.

[Becq]

Agreed with Luminos, especially the final point.  Really, there should be no problem, even if *every* character chose to be a magic user, or even if they all were full Wizards.  Imagine the Wizard player's reaction if the player of the mercenary character in the group (or ex-cop, or whatever) started whining about the Wizard packing a gun, since "guns are their bread and butter".  Seems like the same thing to me.

Haru reminded me of a suggestion in the GM's section of Spirit of the Century.  Each game session (or short sequence thereof), try to pick one or two characters to be in the spotlight.  Come up with some challenges for that session that the chosen characters can really shine in, that other characters wouldn't be able to pull off with as much finesse.

[Lanir]

One thing you might want to make sure comes up in the first step Luminos mentioned is whether they think one of the players will be better at using evocation than the other. Especially if you have to revisit that step. It's one of the things that people tend to worry about. Other posters seem to imply this but I'll state it right out: If you have the power then you've paid for it to be "your thing" as well. So it's kind of silly for one person to expect to corner the market. Evocation is also one of the more open ended powers so how they intend to use it will play a big part in whether any duplication comes up or not. Hell, tell them about how Harry and Elaine (or Molly) compare to and play off of each other with the subtle/overt thing. If they like the idea it could result in a complete about-face on this so instead of it being a problem, the players can consider both of them having evocation to be a strength of the group.

[Morgan]

Certainly have them play at least a session or two before throwing out one or both characters. Also I've run and played several games with multiple Wizards, and games with a Wizard and a Pyromancer or other Focused Practitioners, different skill levels will differentiate the characters, but so will the elements and focus of their magics. Dresden Files is robust enough to handle an entire group of nothing but Wizards and having them all feel very different, don't worry about having two spellslingers in your game.

Remember to explain to your players that they have free rein to color their magic any way they want to. Take a look at the different descriptions of Harry's and Luccio's Fire Attack Evocations. Harry throws huge fireballs or great gouts of flame, Luccio cuts foes in half with laser like streams of super heated fire. Mechanically there doesn't need to be any difference between those two attacks, but the color and feel of each Wizard's magic attacks is well defined by that color.

That's just using Evocation with Fire, and not even getting into the many ways that Evocation with different Elements will be and feel very different. Stop worrying about party niche protection and play the game at least once before you do anything drastic like scrapping both characters.

[deathwombat]

Fire evocation would be different enough from water  or earth etc

[TheMouse]

I am another vote for sitting the players down and having them talk it out. That should always, always, always be step one whenever an issue comes up at the table. About 90% of potential issues can be avoided or resolved by doing this.

The other stuff has also already been pointed out. Wizards will tend to have higher spell casting Skills than non-wizard casters, and wizards will end up with more Refinements. The result is that wizards will be more powerful than non-wizard casters.

Moreover, this trend will continue past char-gen. Wizards will continue to pile points with narrow focus into spell casting Skills, and they will continue to accrue Refinements. Non-wizard casters will tend to spend their Skill points elsewhere and can't purchase unlimited Refinements.

Mechanically what happens here is that the wizard starts out somewhat ahead of the non-wizard caster and will continue to pull ahead over time. It will start out with the wizard having something like 1 or 2 point higher average Skill ratings with casting Skills and a small bonus here and there. It will end up with the wizard having 3 or 4 point higher casting Skills with piles of bonuses. Summing up the bonuses, wizards will often have a jump of something like 5 in their focus area, and that's bloody huge in FATE.

In short, the players should talk, then the player of the wizard should probably be made to understand that his character will be ahead in the casting department and will continue to pull further ahead over time.

[noclue]

Morgan and I are playing in a game at the moment and there's been plenty of room for both his Wizard and my Sorcerer, with no one's toes getting stepped on and neither one of us outshining the other. Of course, he did unleash a mini-sun to save us from a bunch of Red Court Vampires and drive off their warlord, the Blood Madonna. But, then I got to slam the turncoat warden who was chasing us into a wall accidentally causing a 5.2 earthquake in the subway station under Pershing Square. So, things seem to even out.