First Law Question

[Tbora]

Does killing a human being to power a ritual count as a lawbreaker?

Reason I am asking is because if you are using an athame to actually strike the killing blow your not actually killing WITH magic, just taking advantage of the death.To me its no different then the Warden's executing Warlock's with there swords.

[Richard_Chilton]

I'd say that if the death is tied to the magic, then yes.

Example:
Joe the sorcerer slices open his girlfriend's throat to power a spell (in game terms, inflicting on her to power the spell).  That's against the first law because magic is directly tied to the death.

If it's not, then no.
Example:
Stan the sorcerer is in the Nevernever trying to become the envoy of the old Roman god Priapus.   The only thing is someone else wants the job too.  The god shrugs and tells them to take it to the sands (i.e. arena) and the one who lives gets the job. (Game terms: marked by a higher power and whatever else the GM and player agree on.)  Stan kills his rival, but the death isn't tied to the magic that will transform him to Priapus' envoy.  Thus Stan gets the job without breaking the first law and four hours later calls his doctor*.

Of course I'm talking about the metaphysical bits about breaking the first law (getting the Lawbreaker tag), not how the Wardens would react.  I'd bet that the moment someone like Morgan heard that Stan killed someone for power that he'd bring him in as a warlock, and if Stan didn't want to go then he would be killed while resisting arrest.

Richard

*= that was an attempt at humour.  Priapus is the one they named Priapism after.  He's a weird god - makes you wonder about the poets who wrote about him.

[deathwombat]

Killing somone to fuel magics to me seems as a pretty clear violation. Human sacrifiice is frowned upon by the Council at least in that context

[Tbora]

But again magic did not cause the death it was a knife to the throat, to me magic has to cause the death for there to be a violation.

[deathwombat]

Magic  is the reason for the death!

[Tbora]

But not the cause, otherwise the Warden's would be all warlock's themselves.A technicality sure but an important one.

[deathwombat]

I have to ask if you have read the books this game is based on

[Becq]

"Whether you’re using magic directly to rip the life out of someone, summoning up force or flame to kill, or even murdering someone without magic and then using the energy created by the death to power a spell, you are breaking the First Law of Magic."  (YS235)

Mixing mortal death and magic is bad, m'kay?

Addendum:  If a wizard goes on a murderous binge, quartering babies with a hatchet and decapitating the entire populations of small towns, this is perfectly acceptable -- at least so far as the Laws of Magic are concerned -- as long as magic isn't involved on either the dealing or recieving end of those deaths.  This is not to say that doing so will win friends and influence people, and it may well be that the Wardens will be sent after you just to get rid of a threat to the welfare of the Council, but it won't be because of a violation of the Laws of Magic.

[Lanir]

Alter settings and contexts and whatnot all you like. Golden rule, whatever works for your group to have fun is the way to go.

The default we'll all be familiar with is what Becq laid out though. People seem to love finding what they think are ways around the laws for some reason. But the setting just doesn't work that way. The laws of magic are more likely to be read in such a way as to nail you if you're even close to a violation than they are to be interpreted in a lax way that lets you slide based on any halfhearted effort at pseudo-logic you throw up in some sort of lukewarm defense. It's not a freshman debate club here, it's your arse on the line and your character would know it.

To get a bit more of the feel of this, consider how difficult it would be in the real world to murder someone, mutilate their body and then avoid prosecution. It just isn't all that likely.

[Becq]

To get a bit more of the feel of this, consider how difficult it would be in the real world to murder someone, mutilate their body and then avoid prosecution. It just isn't all that likely.

In my opinion, a better analogy would be this: say you're on a diet, and your significant other is strictly enforcing the diet at home.  But at work, you sneak a half dozen donuts from the cafeteria ever day.  Now, you *might* be able to fool your S.O. for a while, but you CAN'T fool your belly.  And eventually, your S.O. is going to notice that your spare tire has expanded despite the diet, and is going to start fingering that big, shiny, sharp Warden's sword...

You might be able to pull one over on the Wardens for a bit.  But the metaphysical Laws can't be lawyered, and the stain on your soul that reflects the breaking of the laws will get noticed eventually.

[FangGrip]

In my opinion, a better analogy would be this: say you're on a diet, and your significant other is strictly enforcing the diet at home.  But at work, you sneak a half dozen donuts from the cafeteria ever day.  Now, you *might* be able to fool your S.O. for a while, but you CAN'T fool your belly.  And eventually, your S.O. is going to notice that your spare tire has expanded despite the diet, and is going to start fingering that big, shiny, sharp Warden's sword...

You might be able to pull one over on the Wardens for a bit.  But the metaphysical Laws can't be lawyered, and the stain on your soul that reflects the breaking of the laws will get noticed eventually.

Yikes!  Good analogy, but it sent shivers down my spine.

Now where did I put those donuts?

[Bruce Coulson]

Yikes!  Good analogy, but it sent shivers down my spine.

Now where did I put those donuts?

Oh great...now I have an image of Homer Simpson as a Warden...

"I am Warden Simpson of the White Council! Prepare to be...ooooh, donuts!"

[deathwombat]

MMmmmmm donuts.
Lawbreaker stand ready to be Doh!!