Homebrew Stunts

[Silverblaze]

I think we already have Scholarship social stunts. If not, I'll add some.

And watch what you say about statistics. It happens to be my field of study.

The mechanical effects of Parry Everything are fine. The description, however, implies physically impossible things. So it needs to change.

I wasn't sure about whether Fireproof should have been armour 1 or 2. That one was a toss-up.

I kinda like Minions, Attack! but it doesn't work very well if the minions are fully statted characters. If they're background fluff, then it's fine. I guess I could rewrite it so that the minions are treated as equipment rather than characters. Actually, I think I'll do that. I'd like to have some more stunt trees on the list.

But first: why would you not allow it, Silverblaze? I'm willing to be convinced here.

PS: Are you speaking from personal experience, Belial?

I sort of feel it would be like letting a mainly mental character attack people with just discipline or conviction if a stunt is taken.(MIND BULLETS!)  Making Combat skills useless, or far less useful.  It is better to play a far more interesint socialite or scholar and kill people with social or mental prowess. (Yes I know the powers that add to physical powers do not apply to social or mental skills, but it still seems to be making combat skills (or playing a well rounded character for that matter)

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I sort of feel it would be like letting a mainly mental character attack people with just discipline or conviction if a stunt is taken.(MIND BULLETS!)  Making Combat skills useless, or far less useful.  It is better to play a far more interesint socialite or scholar and kill people with social or mental prowess. (Yes I know the powers that add to physical powers do not apply to social or mental skills, but it still seems to be making combat skills (or playing a well rounded character for that matter)

Yeah, it may be a bit of a stretch but it's funny.  Personally, I don't see a problem with allowing limited mental and social additions to combat situations.  A good leader can make a world of difference in a battle, social.  The military has plenty of people dedicated to psy-ops, mental.

So, maneuvers, sure.  We've got thousands of years of actual, non-fiction history to back up either.  I'd put a limit on it though because there's only so much mental or social interaction combatants brains can process while trying to keep themselves inside their skulls, beyond that it'll just be noise.

Actually inflicting stress?  Nah, unless there's a lull in the combat nobody cares enough about what's being said to put stress on anyone directly with words.  Someone trying to kill you is way more stressful than just about anything that can be said.  Consequences, maybe.  They could show up after the fight but I can't buy inflicting social or mental consequences in combat without an extremely compelling, situational argument.  Supernatural powers aside of course.

[Blackblade]

I think the Minions, Attack! stunt may be being misinterpreted; the person with the stunt isn't causing damage with words; he telling his minions who to shoot, and they're the ones that cause the damage.  It is simply being modeled as an attack with presence.  With the prerequisite stunts, this ability would cost three refresh, which should prevent social-heavy characters from taking it "just to optimize." Furthermore, while you it would let you attack with Presence, you wouldn't be able to defend with it, meaning that pure-social characters would still have a rough time in a fight.  As a final note, this ability could be easily counteracted by killing enough of the (presumably low-powered) minions.  I think there are enough balances on it that it could be used fairly.

[Silverblaze]

Still uses a social skill for combat yes?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Pretty valid use though.  Consider Minions Attack vs invoking a -1 Presence or Intimidation stunt to do an extremely valid, even in combat, social maneuver on your minions.

With a Supreme +5 Presence, that's a max of 11 points of stress with Minions Attack, assuming a low end of weapon 2.  Using a maneuver to put Inspired, Enraged, or More Afraid of the Boss Than the Players (which could have just as easily been done right before combat) would guarantee you +2 off the tag and another +2 on every FP a minion dropped to Invoke.  And that's if you only use them for the +2 on attacks; invoked even remotely creatively, they could be a heck of a lot more effective than that.

One-on-one, I'm inclined to agree that most social skills don't have much place in combat but when commanding groups, they absolutely do.

[ways and means]

Don't forget Intimidation even in the book they admit that it has a place in physical combat where it can do social and mental stress.

[Silverblaze]

If people like it that's cool.  I think this comes down to my one problem with the system.  I also think my opinion on the system has little place in this thread.  I'll agree I can see how social and mentals skills can be used in combat.  I don't like them causing direct stress essentially replacing combat skills.

I decided to include my opinion  on the system in a spoiler tag so those who don't care can skip it. 

(click to show/hide)

While adding versatility; which I enjoy heartily... the fact that -1 refresh can slowly turn any skill into any other skill causes a problem for me. Essentially this process either (A) devalues the skills individuallity (B) wastes a point of refresh; or (C) allows the creation of a character with one or two catch all skills, allowing him/her to do anything anyone else can without the proper skill.

 This does not create well rounded characters.  While I will admit the the point is for the game to be fun to play and I agree.  The skill trapping system [being shuffled] is a very double edged sword for me. The ability to be just as powerful in combat with a few tags and a few good minions and say a social skill...Presence for example could lead to the combat monkey with no depth (who sacrificed social and mental skills to be useful in a fight...to feel less useful. 

Meanwhile the character with a few stunts modifying a traditionally non combat skill is more useful in far more situations.  That doesn't feel fair or fun to me.  I sound like I'm picking on Presence as a combat skill.  I am kind of, but Discipline determining physical stress track is just as bad. It sounds good on paper.  It allows you to simulate mind over matter that martial arts masters and yogis possess.  It also makes wizards more durable in combat for -1 refresh and no need for endurance at all.  See?  Double edged sword...I like it, but...I don't. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I can sympathize with Silverblaze's viewpoint, but I think he or she is taking it too far.

There is no need for worry about someone using this to optimize, given that there will almost always always be better options.

And that Discipline stunt example is probably less useful than a point of Refinement.

So, yeah, I'll add this.

PS: The character relying on this will be vastly worse at combat than a combat monkey. Like, it won't even be close. Or even close to close.
PPS: It takes quite a few stunts to substitute one skill fully for another. Enough that the guy with one or two catch-all skills is actually not spending his Refresh very well.
PPPS: Discipline is possibly the best combat skill in the game.

[Silverblaze]

I know the combat monkey will be better, but his combat skill doesn't help him in social situations or mental acuity.  Adding an attack trapping to a mental or social skill is generally more useful in more circumstances.  Not necessarily more powerful, just more versatile.  That's in truth my issue.

I'm convinced it won't break the game.  I never really thought it would.  I just didn't care for it.  There's lots I don't care for.  It isn't a bad stunt.  I just don't like it.

[Sanctaphrax]

But you not liking it seems to be founded upon concerns of game balance.

Am I wrong in that?

PS: Would you allow a stunt letting you threaten someone with a gun with Guns?

[Silverblaze]

Yes, yes I would.  Sounds hypocritical I know, but I feel in general combat skills were created to be limited in scope because they were useful in combat.  There are only 4 attack skills . (discipline, guns, weapons, fists...athletics sorta)

Game balance isn't my issue, it's making the few combat skills less useful, by letting any skill (any at all) cause stress/consequences.

[Silverblaze]

After some thought I realized the following.  I'm used to systems where combat is combat and social/mental are in their own category...helping in combat, but not directly.  That is my flaw not the stunt.

I have issue with the system, not the stunt.  By system, the stunt is fine.  It is actually quite clever.  Well done. 

I can admit when I'm wrong, despite, being a gamer, and stubborn.  That said, I did find some questions about it.

If all the minions have inhuman strength or big weapons or...both does the inhuman strength add?  Since the minion is doing damage not the presence?  If the weaker minions die does the attack strength of the presence roll go up?

I still see some abuse for a WCV with good speed and toughness being a mean opponent without needing actualy combat skills, but i suppose that's the system at work...not the stunt.

I maintain my opinions, but I'll say I was wrong, mostly...

[computerking]

Might
Muscle-brained: Your concentration on all things physical has left you numb between the ears. Good for you that numb things don't feel much pain! Use Might instead of Conviction to determine mental Stress.

(Utterly ridiculous, I know, but just look at Schwartzenegger's early career...)

[ways and means]

Talking with Fists (Fists) You can use your fist skill for the threats trapping of intimidate.
Talking with Swords (weapons) You can use your weapons skill for the threats trapping of intimidate.
Talking with Guns (Guns) You can use your Gun skill for the threats trapping of intimidate.

[Magus Black]

Alertness
Notice Tell: You  may use Alertness to defend against Deceit.
Master of the Tell: When defending against Deceit’s “Falsehood &Deception” with “Notice Tell” you get a +2 to social defense.
Primitive Tracker: You may use the Survival skill’s “Tracking” trapping with Alertness.
Inspector: You may use the Investigation skill’s “Examination” trapping with Alertness.
Notice the Unseen: +3 to “Passive  Alertness” to notice things either invisible or veiled.

Weapons
Mirror Stance: When defending with the weapon skill, if the attacker is attacking with the same type of weapon (knife, sword, club, etc.) as the you they suffer a -2 to their attack roll.
Reflection Shatters the Mirror: When attacking with the weapon skill, if the defender is attacking with  the same type of weapon (knife, sword, club, etc.) as the you they suffer a -2 to their defense roll.
Two-Handed Training: When using a melee weapon in both hands add half (rounded up) to the weapons damage total. (EX: A Weapon 2 becomes Weapon 3 and Weapon 3 becomes Weapon 5)
Old School Archer: You may use Weapons instead of Guns to attack with bows and crossbows.
Legendary Archer: When using a bow or crossbow with “Old School Archer” you can attack up to an additional 2 zones away.
Focused Strike: You can use the “Aiming” trapping with the Weapon skill for all weapons.

Stealth
Silent Tank: When wearing armor you suffer no penalty to stealth rolls and your armor cannot be tagged to alert others to your presence.

Burglary
I Lupin!: When spending a fate point to increase the results of any Burglary roll the bonus provided increases to +4.