Author Topic: Blocks  (Read 3999 times)

Offline Becq

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2010, 07:45:52 PM »
I think the question of "Which came first, the defense or the block?" is a bit ambiguous.  First of all, I'll assume that we're talking about spell blocks here, since they are cancelled when they are bypassed, while other blocks are not.  That said, the wording of the rule does leave room for interpretations: "Any attack that bypasses the block cancels it out" (YS252).  Given that, it could be argued that the flavor text is key here; that is, if the attack never reach the spell (because it hit that pile of boxes instead), did the spell actually get bypassed?

I see this as being adjudicated in one of three ways, by way of houserules to clarify this:

1)  The block is always accounted for first.  In this case, an attack that beats a spell block will shatter it, even if the target successfully defends.
2)  The block is treated as a backup defense.  The defender using the block only when it is needed, and with a high defense roll it is not needed; therefore the block would not be bypassed.
3)  The flavor text of the action determines which 'defense' gets tested first.  In this case, a 6 foot dome of energy might get hit even if the dodge was successful (you might be moving a foot to the side, but the dome is still in the way of the bullet), whereas a skin-tight entropy field might not (if you dodged enough that it wouldn't hit you, then it wouldn't hit the skin-tight field).

One argument against flatly applying #1 is the way enchanted item defenses are handled.  You can decide to use their shifts as a block or as armor after you compare attack and defense rolls, and you only mark off a use if the defense is needed.  This would favor the #2 interpretation.

Offline babel2uk

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2010, 01:59:51 PM »
One argument against flatly applying #1 is the way enchanted item defenses are handled.  You can decide to use their shifts as a block or as armor after you compare attack and defense rolls, and you only mark off a use if the defense is needed.  This would favor the #2 interpretation.

This is an honest query.... where in the book does it say that you can decide whether to use the block as Armour or a Block after you compare rolls? As far as I can see you have to decide when you create an evocation block. In the case of enchanted items it looks like you just decide when you're being attacked whether to use it as armour or a block and as a GM I'd want to know before I rolled the attack which it was being used as.

Offline Becq

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 07:26:00 AM »
Great question, and the answer is that it doesn't.  It was a 'patch' that was added since.  Look here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?PHPSESSID=8a21be0a7d1f9e8ed15548fb67675dcd&topic=17041.0

It's the bit right after 'Other Thoughts':

"This allows you, on any defensive item, to use either the Armor or block benefit with one use and take the more advantageous effect."

Offline babel2uk

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 08:33:43 AM »
According to one of the later posts in that thread the enchanted item rules discussed were edited into the books before they went to print. So the version in the books should be the final version. And that doesn't mention the most advantageous use rule. So now I'm confused as to whether we should be taking the version presented in the forum thread over the final version that went into the books.

As a request to the moderator - any chance of getting a sticky thread at the top of the Forum with either the links to, or the main rules for, these patches/errata? I'd seen that thread while looking through the forum, but assumed it was notes on changes before the final draft of the book went to the publishers. It'd be nice to have them all in one place rather than having to trawl for them - and it would flag them as actual patches to the main book rather than playtest rules discussions.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 08:41:35 AM by babel2uk »

Offline eberg

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 06:50:24 PM »
According to one of the later posts in that thread the enchanted item rules discussed were edited into the books before they went to print. So the version in the books should be the final version. And that doesn't mention the most advantageous use rule. So now I'm confused as to whether we should be taking the version presented in the forum thread over the final version that went into the books.
This makes me wonder about the wording under Blocks in Evocation. Instead of giving something like "2 shifts of Power increase the Armor rating by one", like Weapon rating is done under attacks, it is given as "Optionally, instead of block strength, you can opt to have the effect work as Armor or as a zone border instead." This suggests to me that the ability to choose between Block rating or Armor rating on-the-fly was incorporated as something inherent to magical blocks in general, not just a feature of defensive enchanted items.

Offline Becq

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 12:34:54 AM »
Yeah, I don't see any indication that this patch was worked into the rules (at least not the version I got).  The one exception is in the description of Carlos' Entropy shield, which say under Effect (rather than Variations) that he can use the block as a 6-shift Block or an Armor:3.  In contrast, the Duster example seems to specify that it counts as Armor, and other defensive spells list this option as a 'variation' on the spell.

So I dunno what happened with that, but I think it's a necessary rule, especially for 'weaker' items.

Offline MijRai

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Re: Blocks
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 12:42:45 AM »
If it is a Rote or item, I think it should lock to Armor or Block, not either or. You are used to casting it a certain way, or you built it to do one thing. Not change it on the fly.
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