Blocks

[Dragonshadow]

Hi folks,

Pardon my asking if this is well-covered ground.  The question came up in our last session about how the block mechanic actually works.  Let's take a couple scenarios:

Scenario 1: defender has a 6 strength block and a dodge of 3.  The incoming attack is at strength 7.  The attack is adjusted down to 1, correct?  (7-6=1).  In that case, the dodge is the lesser defense and doesn't count.  This is straight from page 210 of YW.

Scenario 2: (here's where it gets a bit murky for my group): defender has a 3 point block and a 6 dodge.  The incoming attack is strength 7.  The attack is still adjusted down to 1, correct?  But in this case only the dodge factors into the defense.  Does the block either add anything else to the defense or mitigate the damage in any further way?

Scenario 3: hero casts block 4 against enemy caster's Discipline check.  If the enemy caster has a Disc. check of 6 and rolls a 6, did he succeed or did the block reduce the roll to a 2?  I'm trying to argue that the enemy caster succeeds with the spell at no penalty.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

[WillH]

Scenario 1: You have this right.

Scenario 2: The block doesn't change the roll at all. Only the dodge matters here.

Scenario 3: For purposes of determining spell success, you only look at the casters roll to determine backlash, etc. The block, dodge, etc. only matters to determine whether or not the spell hits.

[Becq]

As above, but with possible clarification:

A Block just gives you an extra, pre-determined defense roll.  You still get to make a defense roll as normal, but you get to use whichever one (the defense roll or the Block rating) is better.  You get to make this choice each time someone tries to get past the block, for as long as the block lasts.

By the way, having an enchanted item that provides shifts of defense is a special case.  If the defender has, say, a 4-shift defensive item, then it acts as either Block 4 or Armor 2, and the wielder can choose the superior effect after the rolls are made.

And to expand on example 3, when you cast a spell, you are testing against several different values with a single Discipline roll.  First there's the shifts of power allocated to the spell; if you don't meet or exceed this number the spell will cause backlash/fallout but might still affect the target (albeit as a potentially weaker spell).  In addition to this you need to meet or exceed the difficulty of the spell, which is each a fixed difficulty determined by the GM or a defense roll made by the target.  A Block, as described above, affects that second test only.  This is true whether the Block was a defensive spell cast on the target or an 'offensive' spell cast on the attacker to prevent an action.

[Dragonshadow]

First of all thanks to both of you for your replies.

And to expand on example 3, when you cast a spell, you are testing against several different values with a single Discipline roll.  First there's the shifts of power allocated to the spell; if you don't meet or exceed this number the spell will cause backlash/fallout but might still affect the target (albeit as a potentially weaker spell).  In addition to this you need to meet or exceed the difficulty of the spell, which is each a fixed difficulty determined by the GM or a defense roll made by the target.  A Block, as described above, affects that second test only.  This is true whether the Block was a defensive spell cast on the target or an 'offensive' spell cast on the attacker to prevent an action.

I think that might be part of the letdown my group has over blocks.  Effectively, unless it's a super block, your regular check against a particular action will actually be more difficult than the block itself, so it has no cumulative effect or "soak" against the roll.  A 6 strength block sounds tough as heck, but in the case of the Discipline check that's probably going to be fairly average, and if the caster makes his normal, single roll, he's beaten both the backlash check and the targeting check as if the block hadn't been there at all.  Likewise failing the check would also have had nothing to do with the block being there.

It seems the higher the numbers, the more likely it is that a block becomes much less useful than a maneuver.

[WillH]

A 6 strength block sounds tough as heck, but in the case of the Discipline check that's probably going to be fairly average, and if the caster makes his normal, single roll, he's beaten both the backlash check and the targeting check as if the block hadn't been there at all.  Likewise failing the check would also have had nothing to do with the block being there.

Not quite, that six block is likely better than you will get on average with a dodge roll. So, the block will probably be reducing the stress you take more than a dodge roll.

It seems the higher the numbers, the more likely it is that a block becomes much less useful than a maneuver.

True, that's why you have the block/armor flexibility with defensive spells.

[Ophidimancer]

Magical Blocks can also defend against things that your normal Blocks or Defenses might not apply against.

[Becq]

Look at it this way: say I have an Athletics of 5 and a Discipline of 5.  I can, without too much difficulty (other than perhaps a Fate point tossed into the pot) cast a spell that gives me a Block of 6 (especially if I have a bonus from a Focus).

Now, there's a pretty good chance that my defense roll will beat my Block of 6, though my average roll will be slightly less, at 5.  I could get lucky and roll up to 9 on my defense roll (if I roll ++++), which would make the Block irrelevant.  But here's the important part: my defense roll could be as low as 1 (if I roll ----).  Without the Block up, I'm probably in trouble.  With the Block up, I can claim the Block in place of the roll.

As a more 'normal' example, let's say I have those same stats as above, and I get hit by a rifle-wielding thug who manages to roll a 5.  With a perfectly average roll (0000), the attack matches my roll, generating no shifts, but the W:3 adds to this and I take 3 stress.  If I had the Block up -- even though it's only 1 higher than my defense roll -- the attack would miss completely!

So yes, if you can count on being lucky most of the time (or are willing and able to dump Fate into rerolls to make your own luck), then the Block isn't of much use.  I dunno about you, but I'd rather not rely on my (questionable) luck...

[Dragonshadow]

So yes, if you can count on being lucky most of the time (or are willing and able to dump Fate into rerolls to make your own luck), then the Block isn't of much use.  I dunno about you, but I'd rather not rely on my (questionable) luck...

That's a fairly compelling argument.

One more question regarding blocks: if you persist a magic block by putting some more shifts into it and someone punches through the block, does the block dissipate or remain?  I can see both sides of that, and am actually more inclined to say it remains.

Assuming the block dissipates, here's an interesting followup question: if your normal defense exceeds the block, but the attacker exceeds your defense, does he also kill the block itself?  In that case especially I'd argue not.

Now if an attacker specifically targetted what was serving as a block...

[luminos]

It is a very specific feature of blocks, and magic blocks in particular, that they dissapate as soon as something beats one.  In fact, one of the reasons the developers made armor harder to do than blocks was because armor doesn't dissapate from being overcome, while blocks do.

[Dragonshadow]

It is a very specific feature of blocks, and magic blocks in particular, that they dissapate as soon as something beats one.  In fact, one of the reasons the developers made armor harder to do than blocks was because armor doesn't dissapate from being overcome, while blocks do.

Point taken, but if it wasn't the block that successfully beat the attack, was the block really a factor at all?  And if not, was it really defeated?  To use an example of a spell shield on a defender.  If their agility beats an attack, did the attack even touch the shield?

[babel2uk]

Point taken, but if it wasn't the block that successfully beat the attack, was the block really a factor at all?  And if not, was it really defeated?  To use an example of a spell shield on a defender.  If their agility beats an attack, did the attack even touch the shield?

If the defender's block beat the attack in the first place why would they dodge? It's quite specific that you get a dodge roll in addition to the block, so that if the block fails you can still try to evade (assuming that it's possible for you to do so). The block is always considered the first line of defence in these cases, with your dodge roll only occurring if the block fails. That's how I interpret the rules anyway.

[Haru]

Generally I would agree with babel. However, depending on the kind of block that has been set up it might have to be discussed during the game. For example a block like Harry's shield bracelet would always be effected, because it is connected directly to him. On the other hand, Carlos entropy shield might not be effected, because it is set in place and an attacking spell could fly past it if both gm and player agree on it. In that case the block would be intact after the attack, if the defender was able to dodge it entirely. However, now he might have jumped too far away from his block to be able to use it during the next exchange. I guess it all comes down to how and if something is possible to describe.

[wolff96]

It is a very specific feature of blocks, and magic blocks in particular, that they dissapate as soon as something beats one.  In fact, one of the reasons the developers made armor harder to do than blocks was because armor doesn't dissapate from being overcome, while blocks do.

This one of the things I've always had a problem wrapping my head around.

If I have a 6-Shift block up and someone rolls an Epic result on guns, that beats my block.  I roll my defense (Athletics) and tag something like "Lots of boxes" for a bonus to the roll as cover.  With a lucky roll, I get a Legendary result.  I managed to get completely out of the way... but only AFTER it broke my block? 

I still can't help feeling like I'm missing something here.

[babel2uk]

On the other hand, Carlos entropy shield might not be effected, because it is set in place and an attacking spell could fly past it if both gm and player agree on it. In that case the block would be intact after the attack, if the defender was able to dodge it entirely.

If you're not close enough to the block for it to be hit by the attack, then you're not close enough to take it into account anyway, and the question of it being dissipated becomes void, because it's not being considered against the attack in the first place. I wouldn't allow a player to factor the dodge and the block into their defenses against something and then claim that because they dodged the block should still be in place. If they're factoring the block into their defenses against an incoming attack they are automatically hiding behind it in my opinion, and it will be shredded by the attack if the attack roll is high enough.

[blankshield]

Keep in mind that a block goes away every round*, regardless of whether or not it worked.  Basically, it's a way to let you spend your action and your defense roll on not getting pasted to the floor, and pick the better result.


James

*Yes, I know that magic, as it does with so many things, lets you get around this to a degree.  That's why it costs a bunch of refresh, and gives you mental stress.