Need help... Grappling seems OP?

[arsieiuni]

So I ran my session  last night. Thanks again to everyone who helped me form that plot! It was great!

Monday I ran half the session and last night was the other half since we ended early Monday.

It ran mostly smoothly and the players did a great job, had fun, and enjoyed the story.

The only problem I ran into was my not knowing how to make the monsters as bad-assed as they should actually be.

I pit them against a Kalzzaaaazzassh... oh how do you say it? Toadface! (Thanks Harry!) Well that's the stats I used anyway for the "Demon" that was helping the BCVs pull girls out of the city...
And my BCV pc (Just inhuman strength) has Might 5.
So she grapples the demon... and congratulations, he is now a pussy.
She gets him by the horns, rolls well while he rolls poorly and her friends tear him up with fire while she waves his head back and forth making him incapable of action.

What did I do wrong here?


Secondly, in the final battle, the BCV1 is in a circle of virgins about to be healed by magic from his extreme consequence while BCV2 is behind the circle at a podium casting the ritual.
8 Renfields and 2 Renfields with assault rifles protect their masters by ambushing the group from behind right as they try to set up an attack... But the Wizard manages to get a spell off on the pavillion where the ritual is taking place and creates the aspect "unstable footing" by casting a zone-affecting Earthquake spell (In an area that gets +1 on magic power due to the energies there) and screws up their spell. So the BCV1 is only half healed and he's pissed. BCV2 is like *rolleyes* *Sigh*.

My WCV PC tears up the renfields with her whip while my sorceror/apprentice PC lights the renfields on fire (he had a super soaker with kerosene in it.) and the BCV PC makes all the necessary athletics checks and bounds down to the BCV1 (who turns out to be the one that turned her. Everyone but she got this... lol it was pointed out to her later) and grapples him.

So now the book doesn't say BCV have might. It says just give +0 or +1 usually on any skill that isn't there so I give him Might +1 figuring that's appropriate. She grapples him with  6-8 for the whole fight. He never gets up. She tears at him, tears at him, tears at him and he's looking worse and worse where he didn't start at top condition anyway due to what he was doing. Suffice to say, she lands on that one and there is no reason to worry about that one anymore. He's pinned and blocked against all actions.

That said, BCV2 can't help him because the wizard sinks him into the concrete up to his waist. The whole pavillion is a nightmare for anything such as backup or additional renfields because I couldn't justify them keeping their feet... so the PCs score a second ridiculously easy victory with not even a stress box to show for it. Why?

The renfields with guns missed both pcs they shot at and were killed the next round.
The rest of the renfields mostly died in a fire, or were killed by the WCV's whip.

BCV2 was killed by my BCV PC, torn up in a grapple.
BCV1 was killed by the very well-prepared wizard with spells and sunlight in a hanky.


So what did I do wrong? Or did I not do anything wrong? I'm sure I did.
Because my BCV pc can choose a target and INCAPACITATE THEM. For all the power on their sheet, they can do NOTHING and are USELESS.
Is this really how it should be?

Is a PC with Might5 and Inhuman strength just this troublesome? How do I deal with it?
I mean... WCV get Inhuman strength and they could have Might 5 if they wanted (Superb is the cap, we're playing Chest Deep) so there's no reason why this isn't legit.
Just wondering... because it feels like too much.

[KOFFEYKID]

A PC with a high might and inhuman strength is going to be good at grappling, really good. If something isn't inhumanly strong with a high might they are going to beat it, however remember that a wizard will be able to to far more stress much quicker. A BCV is doing 3 stress per exchange after the first on a grapple, thats pretty good but she'd be doing more if she was just duking it out.

Grappling is definitely really powerful, as it should be. When things that can throw small cars grab ahold of you, its usually not good.

[WillH]

First off, that fight sounds pretty awesome, and I'd be happy with it both as a PC or GM. I don't know that you did anything wrong, but there were some things you didn't think of doing.

First it sounds like you used the bog standard BCV out of OW. It seems like these guys were more important than those are appropriate for. You probably should built them from the ground up. But even the standard BCV says to assign others skills as appropriate. Personally I might have gone with Might at 2 or 3.

Second, you don't have to use might to break out of a grapple. Your BCV could have squirmed out with athletic, intimidated his way out, or most appropriately, used his dominate power to force the grappler to let him go. In each case the mechanics are the same. You roll the appropriate skill versus the block value.

Finally, a BCV has gaseous for. He could have just switched to that then slip through the grapplers fingers. I know the grapple rules say you can take no action, but they do go on to say grapple may not block every action. With I don't think anyone could argue against going gaseous when grappled, unless perhaps the grapple incorporated one of BCV catches and a compel against the vampire's high concept was used.

[wyvern]

I'd also suggest a second look at the effects of that earthquake spell.  Applying an aspect of "unstable footing" to a zone is great and all... but you get your one free tag on that, and anything after that feeds fate points to the enemy.  Either a PC has to spend a fate point to invoke the aspect, or you as the GM have to compel the aspect - either way gives a fate point to whoever just took the penalty.  And there's an option to let fate points flow from minion to master; if, say, six renfields tried to enter the area and were unable to do so, that could turn into six fate points for their master...

I'd also have totally thrown a compel at your BCV PC.  "You're trying to initiate a grapple?  You know, the ground's shaking so much *hold up a fate point token* that I think you're more likely to fall on your butt than land a hit."

Other than that - sounds like this session really showed off the power of the grappler; might be time to show off the weaknesses of it - maybe put the PCs up against WCVs (or something else that fights with mental attacks), or against something that just moves too fast for the grappler to get in that initial hold; supernatural speed is a scary defensive power, especially when coupled with a high athletics and a ranged weapon.

[Ophidimancer]

Also remember that you do need to invoke an appropriate Aspect in order to establish a grapple.  If they don't have an appropriate Aspect you're either out of luck, or you have to Maneuver to apply one, which you can then tag to establish a grapple.

[luminos]

So, the reasons grapple is not too powerful:

- You HAVE TO tag or invoke an aspect on the person to be grappled to start the grapple
- The person being grappled can try to find skills other than might that could get them out of the grapple
- The grapple has to be maintained each round, so the character doing it can't do anything other than       
   grapple.

[WillH]

- The grapple has to be maintained each round, so the character doing it can't do anything other than grapple.

Minor clarification, they do get their free one shift automatic effect on the grappled person.

[luminos]

Minor clarification, they do get their free one shift automatic effect on the grappled person.

Can you give a page number for that?  I recall that they can get one shift effects by decreasing the strength of the grapple for just that round, so it wouldn't be free.

[WillH]

YS211, and you're right doing so counts as a supplemental action so it's not completely free.

[arsieiuni]

Oh thank goodness I knew there were things I was missing here.

Well I THOUGHT about gaseous form but I recalled reading that Grapple blocks ALL action. I felt my BCV PC would feel cheated if the BCV just poofed and got away. So since I wasn't 100% on the rules, I didn't do it.
The BCV /DID/ try to turn the tables and bite her, but she shrugged it off.
She was HIGHLY motivated to kill this guy so there was NO FREAKING WAY a fate point (or 3 even) was going to convince her to fall off.
The BCVs here were a) the one that turned her and b) she just rescued her girlfriend and a bunch of other innocents from the demon that helped them.
She wanted their heads like WOAH.

Now what I failed at here... was realizing that grapple could be defended against with their other good scores, or realizing that the text meant I could set their might where I felt appropriate.

You guys are right. I should have built these two from the ground up. I just didn't realize that.
I also didn't know they could transfer fate points to the renfields.
I should have made more renfields and given more of them guns.


The reason the Wizard was able to make the ground unstable footing in general was because he poured 3 shifts of power into making the manuever last the whole scene. So the Earthquake spell didn't do damage. It was a maneuver to tag the whole zone with "Unstable Footing" for the whole scene. So no fate points were needed... I just made it affect friend and foe alike and NO ONE was able to walk around the place without athletics rolls.

The grappling rules are another area I realize I'm too fuzzy on. So She has to do what to set up a grapple?
She's been just rolling and the first rounding setting up a maneuver to apply "Grappled" to the target with no damage.
Second round she'll roll the grapple,  put the block on them and do 3 shifts of damage (She asked me last night if her claw damage counted if she was using her claws in the grapple and I told her I didn't know... 4 shifts of damage per round is a lot, but if it's fair I won't hold her back. Is it fair? She was describing the grapple as having the vampire pinned and trying to tear his chest open. She didn't ask for the claw damage when she fought the demon and had it by the horns. SO I see her reasoning but don't know if it is fair by the system.).
Then she re-rolls the grapple each round, does the same shifts of damage and does nothing else. 


I see my problems here. I must do better next time. THe PCS enjoyed the fight. I just think they got off to easy.

What the pcs don't know is....










..... The BCV2 got away. He was only marginally hurt when he saw it was going TOTALLY south for his friend so he used his dominate to pull the remaining "human sacrifices" over to him to "meat shield" for him making the wizard lose sight of him and have to come across the unstable ground to get him. So while that was taking precious time... he re-opened the rift he'd been using to travel through the never never (They'd JUST killed 4 girls and spilled their blood and he rolled a +3 to open it instantly, on top of which the demon on the other side that he had the deal with was doing the main portion of the work.) and he slipped through the portal leaving an illusion behind. The demon came out ready to take vengeance on the BCVPC who tore off one of its horns in the last fight... But the wizard made it to where the BCV2 was and tossed his sunlight in a hanky out. There was a brilliant flash of light as he called to BCVPC to duck, she rolled to the side of BCV1 and didn't look up. BCV1 was honestly a stress track from death so I ruled cinematically that he looked up at the call of duck and died to the flash even though it should have only been single target. I just felt like letting it happen that way. The BCV2 "appeared" to burst into ash by the power of his illusion. So the demon took a look around and with a "well screw this" expression, bounded back through the nevernever portal and was gone. The dust settled. The Pcs felt victorious.

A couple hours later, sitting at a burger shop with my BCVPC (she's played by my mate) we were wrapping up the scene since the two magic casters went off in one direction after the fight and the two vampires went in another. My WCV and her BCV were chatting over a burger when the BCVPC realized "why did BCV2 just... burst into ash? He didn't look that hurt... and it didn't feel to ME like that burst of sunlight was powerful enough to kill us..." And they both got the realization that they'd been hoodwinked. So I imagine BCV2 gets to come back as a recurring nasty along with the demon they lovingly nicknamed "One-horn guy".

Which makes me happy... because recurring villains are fun.

My next plot involves a local actual festival event called "The Magic City Zombie Walk". On October 2, people from all over town dress as zombies and get together and run through the town pretending to be zombies to kick off the costume and fear season. So what if someone used that as a great event under which to do actual zombies? That's where my mind is headed... I wonder if BCV2 and One-horn guy will be involved. Mmmmm...


Any further thoughts on how I could use these guys better would be loved.
I do like that BCV2 ran because he was kinda uncertain about this whole thing and mostly just doing it because he was kinda tied to BCV1. Well BCV1 is fockered, so he's free so to speak.

Anyway... thanks everyone again for the feedback.

[Becq]

A couple of thoughts:

* A grapple blocks all actions ... unless the GM decides that the action is one that is appropriate to be used while grappling.  So if a player character was grappling a demon by grabbing his horns, it might be entirely appropriate to allow the demon to use his free arms to puch the PC.  Turning into mist while being grappled sounds entirely reasonable, too.  (As an aside, a magical grapple such as creating a force bubble around a target might work against mistform, too.  GM's call.)
* Someone who is grappling is probably less able to defend themselves against other (non-grappled) opponents.
* A zone aspect doesn't allow unlimited free tags.  After the first tag, you have to pay Fate.  Unless you built several maneuvers into one spell, of course, but that's really just multiple aspects that can each be tagged once.  Also, if it was an evocation, the base duration is one exchange, not one scene, I believe.
* I think that adding claw damage to the attack is fair, per the rules, which say that you may freely make an attack, movement, or maneuver against your opponent, with an automatic 1-shift result.  So your PC would be landing a 1-shift Fists attack, and by doing so gets to add +2 for claws and +1 for Inhuman Strength.  This seems very powerful; it might be reasonable to say that the PC can only use the Inhuman Strength bonus on either the grapple or the damage (since they are two seperate actions that are taken together).
* Might is used by the grappler, but not necessarily by the target.
* The grapple is a form of block, which makes taking actions harder, but not impossible.  The grappler needs to roll for the grapple every exchange, with the result establishing the block value for the exchange.  If they choose to do the supplemental damage, the grapple chack gets a -1 for that exchange.  The grappled character can still attempt any action in response, but needs to roll against the block value to succeed.  If the victim succeeds, not only does the action occur, but the grapple is broken, too, and would need to be re-established (another Fate point and an aspect to tag).

Bottom line, though, is that it sounds like everyone enjoyed it, so ... good job!  Now maybe you have some more experience, and you can offer a more interesting challenge next time.  Obviously, you should discuss with your players any changes you intend to make in how you interpret rules.

With regard to your question about using BCV2 in the future ... it's probably a good idea to ensure that he learns from the encounter.  He now knows a major strength the players possess, so maybe he'll come up with some plan to mitigate it.  And maybe he'll pick up another point or two of Fists or Athletics (or some other appropriate skill) to more easily break grapples...

[babel2uk]

My next plot involves a local actual festival event called "The Magic City Zombie Walk". On October 2, people from all over town dress as zombies and get together and run through the town pretending to be zombies to kick off the costume and fear season. So what if someone used that as a great event under which to do actual zombies? That's where my mind is headed...

There's a Legend of the 5 Rings scenario called Night of a Thousand Screams which has exactly that kind of set-up during the local festival for the dead where everyone dresses up like the dead and march through town. Somewhere in the city a necromancer is raising zombies to shamble along in the parade and attack the temple of the Sun Goddess. And throughout the course of the night the PCs have to track down and kill a demon that is trying to get itself a Name (in L5R demons gain a huge amount of power by getting a name - to the extent that there are only a very few named demons in the history of the setting, and they are all army killers of the highest order). I always did like that scenario, not only because it was interesting to play and run, but also because it kept the pressure on because it took place over one single night, so spells didn't refresh, healing was very limited and there wasn't time to send for back-up. In short, go for it, just make sure you really pile on the pressure besides the Zombies.