Hitting with Potion grenades

[Lukas the Dead]

One of the players in my game is playing a heavy Thaumaturgy crafting character, and one of the tricks he would like to whip out fairly often is a plant bomb "potion" for entangling people. I was happy to see this discussion about potion grenades but it didn't answer the question that has come up.

I'm of the opinion that it's a thrown weapon, but the character's player wants to treat this like an evocation and use discipline to hit. We are all still getting comfortable with the rules so I'd like to get some input on the To Hit roll for this item.

[MijRai]

Well, I'd go with throwing it with weapons. Unless he magically launches it at them, he is going to be using knowledge and muscle. I would also warn him not to throw it at a person's head. It might strangle them if you do that, and that would be bad.

[Ophidimancer]

I'm of the opinion that it's a thrown weapon, but the character's player wants to treat this like an evocation and use discipline to hit. We are all still getting comfortable with the rules so I'd like to get some input on the To Hit roll for this item.

Well I guess that depends on whether the chloromantic grenade is a smart bomb or not.  Does it explode and entangle everyone nearby, or does it depend to the caster's will to direct the growth?

[Haru]

Potions are a way of storing an effect. The effect is chosen when the potion is created and can not be changed or directed afterwards. At least that is the way I understand it. That said, what you are throwing is an object, not a spell.

If you want to treat it as an evocation, I would make it a rote spell with a focus component which would be the potions. Instead of a constant focus like a staff he would have to create his foci over and over again. You could have him only carry 4 or 5 of those focus potions around, but instead of the usual focus slot rule, they would have one or two additional slots without cost (and I would restrict those to +Power only), because they are very limited foci. Recreating the potions would mostly be colour, because a wizard is considered to be able to maintain his foci. However, you could have him perform a ritual, gather herbs, maybe even "compel" his focus dependency, having him run out of resources just as he is about to enter the final showdown.

[Richard_Chilton]

Maybe it could be evocation - if he used a rote to deliver it.  I.E.: he doesn't throw it with his hands, he throws it with his magic.

The reason I said rote is that it's not something you'd want to have to think about - when you need to throw a potion you need to throw it then, not after you focus yourself, so it makes sense to have it be a rote.

So Harry has a rote that allows him to blast fire, and that PC will have one that allows him to toss potions.  Potions that he has to make in advance and will run out of long before Harry runs out of fire blasts.  I see that as balanced.

Richard

[Lukas the Dead]

Hey everyone, thanks for the input. It's helped out a ton.

Well I guess that depends on whether the chloromantic grenade is a smart bomb or not.  Does it explode and entangle everyone nearby, or does it depend to the caster's will to direct the growth?

So far he hasn't come up with the idea of a smart bomb, and I'm not going to suggest it to him either. He'll have to come up with that idea on his own.

[mostlyawake]

Hey, I just wanted to add that my group has a potion-maker as well, and he uses weapons to throw them.  Well, sometimes his potions are magic bullets or sling stones, and he uses guns for that.

[DFJunkie]

Well, if by "potion" you mean "physical object that must come into contact with its intended target in order to activate its effect" then yes, Weapons is the correct skill.

However, since "potion" can also mean "single use enchanted item" the player would be well within his rights to pick a different skill for targeting the item, subject to your discretion.  For instance using Discipline to target a one-use version of Harry's force rings would seem perfectly acceptable. 

It really seems like the problem could be solved by discussion.  Maybe he envisions the "potion" exploding as soon as it comes close-ish to the enemy, as directed by his will while you're imagining that it needs physical contact to activate.

[Lukas the Dead]

Well, if by "potion" you mean "physical object that must come into contact with its intended target in order to activate its effect" then yes, Weapons is the correct skill.

This is what he has currently laid out. Sure, he could have it fly from the potion bottle when he flips the cork or something like it, but I'm not going to suggest the other alternatives. He's a fairly clever guy when it comes to playing with the rules for maximum munchkin effects, and I'm sure over time he will figure these kinds of tricks out. However, I'd like him to figure it out later rather than sooner so that it can appear that his character has learned from experience rather then I, the gm, giving him the maximum effect out right.

[DFJunkie]

Just be glad he didn't make an Evocation monster.

[Wolfwood2]

Well, I'd go with throwing it with weapons. Unless he magically launches it at them, he is going to be using knowledge and muscle. I would also warn him not to throw it at a person's head. It might strangle them if you do that, and that would be bad.

Seems like kind of a simulationist argument for this system.  I got the idea that you're supposed to figure out what skill you want to use and then work backwards to justify it.

If "potions" are going to be this guy's primary means of attack in physical combat, then what is the sense of making him buy up a weapons skill he doesn't want?  Or alternately, miss a lot with his potions because he wasn't interested in that skill?

[blankshield]

(-1) Stunt: Bottle tosser.  Use [thaumaturgical friendly skill of your choice] when throwing potions, instead of weapons.


James

[Becq]

I don't see Athletics suggested above.  Athletics is (a) appropriate for throwing non-weapon items, and (b) pretty spellflinger-friendly (for defense, of course).  The main difference between Athletics and Weapons is that Weapons is trying to hit hard or nastily, whereas Athletics cares only about hitting the target.  So a GM might reasonably rule that Athletics could be used to hit a target (either a person or a location) but won't add shifts of damage to the potion attack.  Which it probably shouldn't, anyway.