Duplicating Kincaid's actions

[knnn]

In SmF, Kincaid manages to take out several Denarians, each with a single shot.  In one case, he manages to take out two with the same bullet.

I'm trying to figure out how he managed to do this under the rules, given his stated stats and with your average Denarian having mythic toughness. 

As I see it, he either used a ton of fate points ("I must protect the Archive"), or maybe holy-water bullets to get around the Catch.

Any other ideas?

[Mal_Luck]

Considering when he knew he was dealing with Red Court he brought Flamethrower Shotguns... I think he may have brought Holy/Consecrated Bullets. Kincaid is over 300 years old, so his OW writeup probably rates him lower than he actually is.

He probably used Stealth (Ambush) tactics to take their defenses to Mediocre, Holy Bullets, and probably some unknown powers or stunts.

[wolff96]

Considering when he knew he was dealing with Red Court he brought Flamethrower Shotguns... I think he may have brought Holy/Consecrated Bullets. Kincaid is over 300 years old, so his OW writeup probably rates him lower than he actually is.

He probably used Stealth (Ambush) tactics to take their defenses to Mediocre, Holy Bullets, and probably some unknown powers or stunts.

He also works for the Archive.  If anyone is going to know every single trick, loophole, and rules abuse for getting around mystic powers, it's her.  Kincaid has always been depicted as crazy-prepared -- as noted by Mal_Luck, he had the shotguns with special rounds in case the vampires cheated (which would have worked nearly as well on a cheating wizard).

I have no doubts that when the call came in for the Archive to work as arbitrator under the accords, he implicitly prepared for treachery from either side.  *ESPECIALLY* because one of the two parties was the Denarians and everyone knows just how trustworthy they are...

If we assume that the creature had Supernatural Toughness (suggested for the "Obsidian Statue" on OW-203) and Kincaid could NOT satisfy the catch, then he needs to get approximately 21 shifts to take it out in one shot (3 stress, 4 'extra' boxes, armor: 2, and a total of 12 for consequences).  A rifle like the one he was using is already Weapon: 3.  He had plenty of time to aim from stealth for a free +2 tag.  His target-rich environment stunt *definitely* applied for the +1 to guns.  "Technology is the Great Equalizer" and "Protect the Archive" could both be tagged here with little dispute, as well as any stealth-enhancing location tags at the Aquarium.  If his Guns skill is Legendary (and I would argue that it is) a good roll against the target's Mediocre defense (ambush shot, as Mal_Luck points out) could produce enough shifts to take it out in a single shot. 

And the creature in question still thrashed about, headless, for a while trying to smash Harry. 

-------------------------------------------------

So it's possible to take out ONE with a single shot in a prepared ambush, even without special ammunition -- which was how he dropped most of them.  The only one that I can't get around is the two-for-one special, unless you count "head blown off" as a really unusual Severe Consequence.

But I think it illustrates how nasty even a pure mortal can be with a gun in this game...  if he has time to prepare his shots.  None of Kincaid's special powers really came into play during this fight, except possibly ones that enhance his stealth.  That example up there will kill a Denarian *without* satisfying the catch.  If he was using special ammunition, it becomes a lot easier.

It just occurred to me while writing this up...  If a player was trying to do something like this in my game, I would allow the Aim Action for something like "Lined up in my Sights" and then use the free tag to allow the player to do a Spray Attack with a single Rifle bullet from ambush.  That doesn't seem very unreasonable to me.

[Belial666]

Weapon Focus: +1 skill rolls with your chosen weapon or gun.
Lethal Shot: +2 damage to unarmored and +1 damage to armor 1 targets with guns.
Precise Shot: If you have applied the "in my sights" aspect, you may place your shot to vulnerable areas, reducing the target's armor by 2.
Trick Shot: +2 to maneuver rolls with guns.
Rapid Aim: once per exchange, you may apply a guns "aiming" maneuer as a supplemental action, taking the usual -1 penalty
Dual Shot: once per exchange, if you shoot a target and your attack deals a consequence, you may sacrifice your next action to shoot again at a target at the same zone with the same attack bonus as your previous shot.



Assume Kinkaid has the above stunts, +5, maybe +6 guns skill and his Sniper Rifle has .50 cal APDH rounds (weapon 3, armor piercing 1).
One round he applies "In My Sights" as a supplemental and "Right in My Sights" as a normal action.
The next round he applies "perfect angle" as a supplemental, tags all 3 aspects and shoots with a -1 due to the supplemental.

A +6 guns skill from ambush means he has, on average, 5 shifts over the opponents' defense (due to the supplemental).
Tagging 3 aspects gives him another 6 shifts over the opponents' defense.
His weapon is weapon 3 and reduces armor by 1.
His "Precise Shot" stunt reduces armor by another 2, making most armor 0.
Due to armor being effectively 0, his Lethal Shot kicks in, dealing another 2 stress.
His "Dual Shot" stunt kicks in, enabling him to do a second attack at the same zone at the same bonus.


So, on an average roll, with one exchange of aiming, without fate points, without special bullets and satisfying catches, he does 16 stress per hit - and he does two hits . Anything short of Mythic Toughness is toast and even those guys would need to take almost all their consequences.

[GM_Withdrawal]

Are those stunts pulled from the book or somewhere else? The last two seem rather overpowered. Also I don't think Lethal Shot should Stack with Precise Shot; it seems like a serious double dipping.

[Belial666]

Most of them are adaptations of identical or very similar stunts from other skills. I.e. Dual Shot is based off Riposte that allows you to immediately counterattack if you succeed in a defense roll. Lethal Shot is identical to Lethal Weapon. Weapon Focus is, practically, the "Way of the AK" stunt from Sanya's build. Trick Shot actually exists.
The only one not based directly on a similar stunt is Precise Shot. Here I go off with the rule and the examples that a stunt is worth a situational +2 when it comes to stress, and bypassing 2 armor is a situational +2.

Also, the stunts don't "stack" ; not one gives a bonus at the same value as another. They may synergize very well though. Similar to how if you have "riposte" to counterattack at a successful defense, and "footwork" to defend with weapons against extraordinary things like bullets and magic, and another stunt to boost your skills with weapons you can not only attack at a higher skill but also defend at a higher skill, and also counterattack against a wider range of attacks.


Synergizing stunts can give a "feet in the water" mortal character a +5 attack, +5 maneuers and +5 defense (when the skill cap is only +4), counterattack at a successful defense, and weapon 5 to weapon 7, depending on what weapons he uses.

[knnn]

Weapon Focus: +1 skill rolls with your chosen weapon or gun.
Lethal Shot: +2 damage to unarmored and +1 damage to armor 1 targets with guns.
Precise Shot: If you have applied the "in my sights" aspect, you may place your shot to vulnerable areas, reducing the target's armor by 2.
Trick Shot: +2 to maneuver rolls with guns.
Rapid Aim: once per exchange, you may apply a guns "aiming" maneuer as a supplemental action, taking the usual -1 penalty
Dual Shot: once per exchange, if you shoot a target and your attack deals a consequence, you may sacrifice your next action to shoot again at a target at the same zone with the same attack bonus as your previous shot.



Assume Kinkaid has the above stunts, +5, maybe +6 guns skill and his Sniper Rifle has .50 cal APDH rounds (weapon 3, armor piercing 1).
One round he applies "In My Sights" as a supplemental and "Right in My Sights" as a normal action.
The next round he applies "perfect angle" as a supplemental, tags all 3 aspects and shoots with a -1 due to the supplemental.

A +6 guns skill from ambush means he has, on average, 5 shifts over the opponents' defense (due to the supplemental).
Tagging 3 aspects gives him another 6 shifts over the opponents' defense.
His weapon is weapon 3 and reduces armor by 1.
His "Precise Shot" stunt reduces armor by another 2, making most armor 0.
Due to armor being effectively 0, his Lethal Shot kicks in, dealing another 2 stress.
His "Dual Shot" stunt kicks in, enabling him to do a second attack at the same zone at the same bonus.


So, on an average roll, with one exchange of aiming, without fate points, without special bullets and satisfying catches, he does 16 stress per hit - and he does two hits . Anything short of Mythic Toughness is toast and even those guys would need to take almost all their consequences.

Maybe...

Remember that for the first shot, he kills the Denarian while he suddenly drops to the ground which would negate the "in my sights" aspect, or at least increase the difficulty of the shot.  He also disappears after taking the shot, moving immediately to another location, so I don't think the "Dual Shot" would be applicable.  Otherwise he'd be a sitting duck.

For the shot where he takes out two Denarians with a single bullet, you've got to assume that the difficulty is at least "epic" (that shot is one of his best maneuvers in the entire scene).  This makes it a bit harder.

 

[vultur]

In SmF, Kincaid manages to take out several Denarians, each with a single shot.  In one case, he manages to take out two with the same bullet.

I'm trying to figure out how he managed to do this under the rules, given his stated stats and with your average Denarian having mythic toughness.  

My take is that most Denarians DON'T have Mythic Toughness. The idea that Denarians tend to be plot device level characters isn't really supported by the books -- most of what they've been seen doing in combat is not that impressive compared to, say, Morgan or Luccio. Harry is usually able to fight any one Denarian on pretty even terms, barring Nicodemus.


I'd give most Denarians Inhuman Toughness, reserving supernatural and mythic levels for those like Ursiel. My stats have the Obsidian Statue Denarian as having a physical stress track of OOO(OO), Armor:1, +1 mild consequence, for example.

[Belial666]

Remember that for the first shot, he kills the Denarian while he suddenly drops to the ground which would negate the "in my sights" aspect, or at least increase the difficulty of the shot.  He also disappears after taking the shot, moving immediately to another location, so I don't think the "Dual Shot" would be applicable.  Otherwise he'd be a sitting duck.

He has Inhuman Speed. He can move 1 zone without penalizing his actions at all.

[deathwombat]

Kincaid also had the author on his side.