Author Topic: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.  (Read 2907 times)

Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« on: September 24, 2010, 10:37:48 AM »
I'd like some feedback from some people (I'd love to hear butcher's opinion, but others as well of course) on a character concept I've had in my head for a while.

A focused practioner with an obscure specialization of Time magic.  Instead of, say, looking/traveling into the future or past, he's focused it into controling the speed in which his own life passes by, slowing or speeding up time from a personal perspective.
To use a metaphore, imagine an hourglass lifetimer, with a spigot in the center.  Allowing him to control how fast or slow the sand trickles to the bottom.

Stat-wise this gives him a Supernatural Speed (-4).  Now this sounds rather powerful for a human, but it's counteracted by how that speed works.  The faster he gets, the faster he ages.  He could spend the equivilent of a month's lifespan in minutes.  Now with wizard aging he doesn't need to worry about growing into old age within a year, but he could still easily use up his life quickly, so to counteract the extra drain, he can slow his life as well.  Meaning from his perspective, everything around him would be going in fast-forward.  This is usually done when sleeping, but means from his perspective he could only get 4 hours sleep, while 16 pass by to everyone else.  This can, of course, leave him quite vulnerable during that time.

And one big question, one he himself would worry about the wardens ever asking, is does this form of time magic break one of the laws of magic.  Time magic is about as taboo as mind magic, so would be walking a thin line at best.  Luckily it might be hard for anyone to tell how exactly his speed works (he's certainly not going to tell), though might attract the attention of someone like The Gatekeeper.  Ideas?


Anyway, please comment on the idea.  I'll be happy to explain any questions, as it's late and I'm not sure if I explained the concept properly.

Offline Papa Gruff

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 12:58:41 PM »
First of all: Welcome to the community.

If I have understood everything correctly, your wizard/practitioner can/does only alter time where he and he alone is concerned, right? Compared with time travel this seems like a minor thing to me. He bends the flow of time around him and this more or less is only apparent to him? Cool idea!

Now: where the laws are concerned any kind of time magic automatically enters a very grey area of magic. Some things of the character concepts seem to be more greyish then others. The sixth law dictates: Don't swim against the currents of time. I'm quite sure when it comes to speeding up the time around your practitioner you are save. You are not exactly swimming against anything really, it's more like you are surfing on the currents. When it comes to slowing it down, now thats a horse of a different color and might be considered swimming against the current.

At least in my game the wardens would be very curious about these time manipulations and your guy would probably end up under constant supervision. I'm not talking "Doom of Damocles" here, it would be more like the council keeping an eye on Margret LeFey who danced around the edges of the laws all her life.

This doesn't have to be the case in your game though. All depends on what you and your group decide. If everybody is cool with your concept. No problems...
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Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »
Quote from: Papa Gruff
First of all: Welcome to the community.
Thank you

If I have understood everything correctly, your wizard/practitioner can/does only alter time where he and he alone is concerned, right? Compared with time travel this seems like a minor thing to me. He bends the flow of time around him and this more or less is only apparent to him? Cool idea!

Now: where the laws are concerned any kind of time magic automatically enters a very grey area of magic. Some things of the character concepts seem to be more greyish then others. The sixth law dictates: Don't swim against the currents of time. I'm quite sure when it comes to speeding up the time around your practitioner you are save. You are not exactly swimming against anything really, it's more like you are surfing on the currents. When it comes to slowing it down, now thats a horse of a different color and might be considered swimming against the current.

At least in my game the wardens would be very curious about these time manipulations and your guy would probably end up under constant supervision. I'm not talking "Doom of Damocles" here, it would be more like the council keeping an eye on Margret LeFey who danced around the edges of the laws all her life.

This doesn't have to be the case in your game though. All depends on what you and your group decide. If everybody is cool with your concept. No problems...

No, not when alone.  In the same way how a vampire/half-turned would activate their speed.  Course if the campaign involved stronger characters, I'd make his speed Mythic (-6), so it doesn't have to be a minor thing.  As for the speed-downs, it's just the other side of the coin.  He would sacrifice a few hours of his day to replenish some of the lost time the usage of his power would have taken from him. I think it would also lead to some possible plot situations as well.  He's pretty much helpless in this state.  If he's slowed down his own time, he can't instantly deactivate it if someone comes up to kill him.  Someone could have broke into his house, stabbed him 12 times, robbed the place, and left before he would have time to react to the first bit (and of course die) and make time normal for him again.

And I feel the same with the warden's reaction.  The character himself would be rather weary of letting anyone find out how he can do what he can to avoid the council looming over him.  Since he has no evocation ability, he'd never be council material, so would at most be a member of the Paranet.  And might lie, claiming to be a changeling or something so no one finds out (Course the sight might have him surrounded by clocks or something.)  I think it would all rely on his actions with his abilities, on the consequences for them

Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 05:21:31 PM »
And I don't have a gaming group.  I posted a topic in hopes of finding one in the area, but doubtful it'll catch anything.  I have no contacts at local colleges or gaming societies to find one that way.

I just like to create characters.

Another one I'm working on is a heavy-hitter type, like a rival towards The Archive.  The Namekeeper.  A protector of the knowledge of true names, human and non.

Offline Aludra

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2010, 05:22:58 PM »
I'm totally noob to RPG so feel free to disregard my comments:

Instead of having him be super-sleep, I think it could be a fun thing to toy with instead to have him be like the 'drunken uncle' of the group.  he's (seemingly) slow witted and slow moving, even to the point where he appears clumsy most of the time because he's 'saving up' his life-span to use in combat when it's a huge advantage to be a fraction of a second faster than everyone else.  He'd almost be a panderan monk of sorts.  I think this would be more fun to work with than a super-sleepy mage.

And to clarify what i think SBB means with the speed stuff is kind of like a windcrafter.  Amara would speed up her own personal reaction times, so while everyone else is moving at full tempo, she's doing half-time.  This is a lot like what SBB is wanting his character to acheive using time magic on itself.
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Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2010, 05:38:53 PM »
I'm totally noob to RPG so feel free to disregard my comments:

Instead of having him be super-sleep, I think it could be a fun thing to toy with instead to have him be like the 'drunken uncle' of the group.  he's (seemingly) slow witted and slow moving, even to the point where he appears clumsy most of the time because he's 'saving up' his life-span to use in combat when it's a huge advantage to be a fraction of a second faster than everyone else.  He'd almost be a panderan monk of sorts.  I think this would be more fun to work with than a super-sleepy mage.

And to clarify what i think SBB means with the speed stuff is kind of like a windcrafter.  Amara would speed up her own personal reaction times, so while everyone else is moving at full tempo, she's doing half-time.  This is a lot like what SBB is wanting his character to acheive using time magic on itself.

I have thought of this, yes.  a kinda Clark Kent-like exterior most of the time.  slow, clumbsy, like only working at 0.8 speed to everyone else.  I haven't fully developed the character's personal life yet, not sure what he does as a career.  The drunken uncle bit would lie heavily on what his job would be.

And yes, exactly.  I didn't think of a crafting simile.  The world seems to slow down to Amara when she does that, while she still has free movement.  Allowing her to move quicker and have more time to react to things.  Exactly the same as my concept.

Offline Papa Gruff

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2010, 06:09:31 PM »
Ah ok! Now I get it. As I see it you could do it in a couple of ways:

First of all you could go and design a custom power for your character. That is not forbidden. As it has a huge disadvantage to it, it fits pretty decently into other powers the game provides already.

The following is just something from the top of my head and not thought through at all:

Quote
Power: Time twister [-4]
The Power enables the character to create a temporal field around him that changes the way the currents of time flow around him. If he chooses to use it everything around him seems to slow down to slow motion speeds. It is possible to use the power as a supplemental action meaning that during an exchange in witch it is used any form of other action may be performed.

Chronotonic Hibernation: When the power is activated the character instantly begins to attract chronotonic energy. For every exchange the power is active the character has to roll a discipline test starting at good and progressing on the difficulty table with each exchange the power remains active during a scene. If at some point the character doesn't beat the difficulty the character falls into a chronotonic hibernation, that lasts for an amount of hours equal to the number of exchanges the power was active. Even if the skill test doesn't fail at some point the Chronotonic Hibernation still has to take place at some point after the current scene.

This idea can be modified in oh so many ways. The -4 feels rather random as long as it is not clear what you can do during the twist. If you can go up to an enemy and slice his throat, than this would definitely not be a power I'd allow a PC in my game :) ...

An other way is to do it through Mythic Speed that is tied to some kind of "Human Form (Involuntary Change)". In this case you'd just RP what is happening or maybe tie it to an aspect so the GM can compel you to be in your hibernation mode...

Still has to be a huge possibility of OPness to it.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 07:46:18 PM »
And one big question, one he himself would worry about the wardens ever asking, is does this form of time magic break one of the laws of magic.  Time magic is about as taboo as mind magic, so would be walking a thin line at best.  Luckily it might be hard for anyone to tell how exactly his speed works (he's certainly not going to tell), though might attract the attention of someone like The Gatekeeper.  Ideas?
I think it depends on how strict the Warden who notices you use your power is -- if one had a chip on his shoulder and was looking, searching, agonizing over finding something to catch you up on, then you might be in trouble.

The wording of the law is "Never Swim Against the Currents of Time."  So, using the river analogy, what you are doing is swimming up-streamward fast enough to slow you down with respect to the shore, but not so fast that you actually go upstream.  So you are, in fact "swimming against the currents of time".  But what the law is intended to prevent is time paradoxes.  I.e., swimming backwards with respect to the shoreline to arrive before an event occured, enabling it to be changed.  You're not doing that, so in that since you're safe.

I guess the important question is that of what is enforced by the metaphysics of the Laws of Magic.  And I think I'd answer it this way: slowing down your travel along the river without actually travelling upstream is roughly the equivalent of hurting a mortal with a spell without killing them.  That is, it's a bit risky, but unless you actually cross the line you stay free of lawbreaker stunts.

Offline Crimson Overcoat

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2010, 03:59:57 AM »
The big problem with this perspective on time magic is going to be fallout from spell disruption, overuse, or outright failure. At some point in time, a creative (and slightly cruel) GM is going to throw some rapids into your metaphor and send you into the rocks.

For example: Your constant expanding and contracting of the local space-time starts to leave warped areas behind, making spacetime hang...funny. Deja vu, lost time incidents, random pre- or post- cognitive events in bystanders are just a few of the minor problems that could be set into motion.  Dresdenverse metaphysics describe many types of magic gaining physics based momentum of their own, e.g. earth magic, after being set into motion by the initial spellcraft. The same could be said with time, albeit with less predictable effects. Even if the magic is only following pseudo-scientific Star Trek science rules, you are still going to run into problems. Ripples spread, no matter how large, and an object moving in a stream leaves a wake. Those ripples interact in complex and unforeseen ways, and that is what is going to get you into trouble.

It's the side effects that are going to attract the attention of the Wardens, or other Chronomancers who are less heavy handed in their temporal magics. Those who already use temporal magics for whatever reason will be more likely to detect your meddling before anyone else. Individuals are unpredictable, so who knows what their response is going to be-anything from a friendly warning to instadeath. Wardens who are eventually pointed to previously mentioned side effects will come in for a quick kill-it is unwise to mess with anyone you suspect can time travel, lest they go back and smother you in your crib.

The best part about all of this, of course, is the fun that you would have with all of these problems. The amount of trouble that a character gets into is directly proportional to their power level. At least you would have a lot of Fate points coming at you from all sides.

Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2010, 08:41:34 AM »
The big problem with this perspective on time magic is going to be fallout from spell disruption, overuse, or outright failure. At some point in time, a creative (and slightly cruel) GM is going to throw some rapids into your metaphor and send you into the rocks.

For example: Your constant expanding and contracting of the local space-time starts to leave warped areas behind, making spacetime hang...funny. Deja vu, lost time incidents, random pre- or post- cognitive events in bystanders are just a few of the minor problems that could be set into motion.  Dresdenverse metaphysics describe many types of magic gaining physics based momentum of their own, e.g. earth magic, after being set into motion by the initial spellcraft. The same could be said with time, albeit with less predictable effects. Even if the magic is only following pseudo-scientific Star Trek science rules, you are still going to run into problems. Ripples spread, no matter how large, and an object moving in a stream leaves a wake. Those ripples interact in complex and unforeseen ways, and that is what is going to get you into trouble.

It's the side effects that are going to attract the attention of the Wardens, or other Chronomancers who are less heavy handed in their temporal magics. Those who already use temporal magics for whatever reason will be more likely to detect your meddling before anyone else. Individuals are unpredictable, so who knows what their response is going to be-anything from a friendly warning to instadeath. Wardens who are eventually pointed to previously mentioned side effects will come in for a quick kill-it is unwise to mess with anyone you suspect can time travel, lest they go back and smother you in your crib.

The best part about all of this, of course, is the fun that you would have with all of these problems. The amount of trouble that a character gets into is directly proportional to their power level. At least you would have a lot of Fate points coming at you from all sides.

I'm not so sure about temporal ripples.  It's an internal effect for the time altering, so any bad effects from doing it alot would happen to him, not an area.  So he could sometimes suffer from memory gaps, or age, or just freeze in place and no respond to anyone for a minute or longer.  Possibly go into a form of coma, where his mind would be trapped between seconds.  IE, to us, weeks, or possibly years, could go by, while to him it would be an instant.

I agree with it catching the attention of those who are used to temporal magic though.  I'm sure some are out there.  And one particular one I'm sure who he would have to interact with in one way or another would be the gatekeeper.  I'm pretty sure he's the white council's specialist in time magic (or is at least the only one allowed to use it)

Offline Crimson Overcoat

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2010, 02:23:21 PM »
This is a fun discussion. Time magic is one of my absolutely favorite areas of magic.

Low level chronomancy is likely fairly common, especially to minor talents. Most forms of precognition rely on it to some degree-for example, I Ching, Tarot, and other forms of sortilage, as well as astrology and it's ilk. Plus you have other talents, such as the woman in White Night who just saw a few seconds into the future all the time. It is more than likely that this character's presence would cause unusual side effects to any of these individuals attempting to use their powers, even if his power is localized within his own aura.

Because of the unusual nature of the character's magic, and his likely reputation as an eccentric/bad a$$, lesser practitioners may report the weirdo to the the Wardens out of principle. Even if he's a good guy (likely), super speed is usually confined to supernatural bad guys.

One thing that we certainly agree on is the detrimental effects that combat chronomancy has on a body. The first character that I have written up for the game uses a sickening combination of sensory chronomancy coupled with arithnomancy (I found a practical use for that weird harry potter stuff) to contain and calculate probable potential actions, and then wraps up with overclocking biomancy to achieve super speed combined with tactical superiority. This leads to a deadly opponent in combat, able to take on the monsters at or above their level physically, but leaves the wizard with torn muscles, stress fractures, lots of bruises, and possible minor brain damage.

If you built the character as a focused practitioner, it would give you more options to power the speed rather than just eating up your life. You could expand and contract time instead of spending it. For example, you compress the time that you need compressed so you get your speed boost, and later on you pay for it by letting time snap back into place, lengthening time around you when it won't get you killed, just make you really bored. But you run into the problem of external time magic, and the potential problems mentioned with that earlier. But you could use the ritual ability pay for your time in advance, sticking to your sanctum and waiting out the expanded time to limit potential effect on the outside world.

Think of the ritual as winding a spring or stretching a rubber band. You lock the potential energy into place for later use. With the right combination of skills, you could increase or decrease the amount of speed you gain based on the strength of the ritual and the time spent powering up. You could also have the power available as a quick and dirty evocation tied to a danger sense time enchantment, allowing you to power up in unexpected situations, but with the drawbacks of the internalized power source (life force powered) or local temporal disturbances. The winding the spring/stretching the rubber band ritual treads very close to breaking the Law, however.

Offline wolff96

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2010, 04:23:09 PM »
This is a fun discussion. Time magic is one of my absolutely favorite areas of magic.

I agree, this is a really neat idea.

If one of my players wanted to do something similar, I'd probably 'cheat' with the powers that already exist.  With a minor re-flavoring, you could just use the Hunger Track of a vampire.  Speeding up time is *exhausting*, so you have to make the check after any scene that you use your powers.  Slowing down time to get 'super-sleep' is the equivalent of feeding and eliminates the Stress Boxes.

Offline Becq

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 05:50:20 PM »
A question: are you planning on statting this character by giving him one of the Speed powers, then flavor-texting it by claiming that it is a function of magic?  Or are you planning on giving him some form of magic (Chronomancy, ie Time Channeling) and using *that* to grant you speed abilities?  If it's the former, then it would probably avoid the downsides described by Crimson (excellent ideas, by the way!) because the magic used is assumed to be heavily refined and at least largely invariable.

It's a bit like the "Werewolf as a single-spell caster" idea that keeps coming up both in the novels and in the sidebar comments of the rules.  A Werewolf can 'cast' his one 'spell' very quickly, very safely, and very reliably -- and has practiced with it often and can therefore make the most effective use of it.  A more generalist Biomancer might be able to recreate the effect, but would do so far less well, and would have a hard time dealing with his assumed body properly.  In the same way, a one-spell Speed-o-mancer (paying refresh for the speed power) could use his spell without significant risk, whereas the Chronomancer who tries to duplicate the effect might suffer more significant risks, as described by Crimson.

By the way, some time ago I posted some 'house rules' for Biomancy that flesh out some sidebar rules in the book; they could easily be applied to the Chronomancer concept:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20673.msg915259.html#msg915259

These would likely work very well with Crimson's ideas, with the debt compels being used by the GM to reflect either physical strain on the body, time catching itself up at inopportune moments, or 'temporal eddies' causing ... problems.

Also, with regard to the discussion of eddies vs. internal magic, etc: there are two ways to 'pay for' a failed Control roll.  Super is talking about 'backlash' (which might be expressed in terms of physical/mental trauma) whereas Crimson is talking about 'fallout' (which could easily be expressed in terms of 'eddies').  Both are possible as the result of a failed roll, and the caster decides whether or not to 'take the bullet' so to speak.  This is also seperate from the 'Chronomantic debt' that would result from using the temporary powers sidebar as described in the house rules above.

Offline SuperBunnyBun

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 07:32:13 PM »
If you built the character as a focused practitioner, it would give you more options to power the speed rather than just eating up your life. You could expand and contract time instead of spending it. For example, you compress the time that you need compressed so you get your speed boost, and later on you pay for it by letting time snap back into place, lengthening time around you when it won't get you killed, just make you really bored. But you run into the problem of external time magic, and the potential problems mentioned with that earlier. But you could use the ritual ability pay for your time in advance, sticking to your sanctum and waiting out the expanded time to limit potential effect on the outside world.

That's pretty much what I was intending when I mentioned that he would slow his own time down.  he would make up for any time used up by speeding by slowing his aging, and thus, make the world move fast-forward to him.  Preferably this would happen when at home or as he slept.  Kind of like recharging the batteries of his life.

A question: are you planning on statting this character by giving him one of the Speed powers, then flavor-texting it by claiming that it is a function of magic?  Or are you planning on giving him some form of magic (Chronomancy, ie Time Channeling) and using *that* to grant you speed abilities?  If it's the former, then it would probably avoid the downsides described by Crimson (excellent ideas, by the way!) because the magic used is assumed to be heavily refined and at least largely invariable.

I'm still debating this.  I don't know if I should go simple and just a flat-out -4 or -6 speed, or that approach like Billy turning into a werewolf.  I'm still new to the system, never played Fate before this game.

Thinking about it, probably the wolf-like way.  it would save me trouble of trying to figure out how to even it out using aspects or such as the only way to limit the power

Offline Crimson Overcoat

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Re: Advice on a character concept. Speedster Mage.
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 09:21:22 PM »
This would be a good place to post a couple of build options. I'm not all that familiar with the Fate system either, but I know the books, gaming, and magic stuff backwards and forwards.