Sponsored Magic Thaumaturgy at the Speed of Evocation Question (Taking out)

[jb.teller4]

So as I understand it, when performing Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation with Sponsored Magic, you can use an effect from Thaumaturgy then you use the Evocation casting rules using the Thaumaturgy effect's Complexity for the Power.

Assuming I'm understanding that right, I had a question about Thaumaturgy effects that require you to Take Out the opponent, such as Transformation spells.

So let's say a wizard has a form of Sponsored magic that let's them turn people into squishy animals at the speed of Evocation (this doesn't seem out of line for faerie magic, I'd say). 

If it were done with a Thaumaturgy ritual, the Complexity would need to be high enough to overcome their defense skill and roll, fill up all their Consequences, and take them out in one shot.  So it seems to me that Transformation is handled as an attack that you have to succeed at completely in one shot.  This is supported by the fact that killing spells are technically transformation spells if I remember right.

So for transformation spells at Evocation speed it seems to make sense mechanically to do the Transformation as an attack, with the Taken Out result being described as transforming them.  Any consequences along the way should reflect the process of transformation (whether the stress, pain, or injuries of resisting or even partial transformation). 

Most importantly, what that would mean is that instead of using the huge Complexity of a hostile transformation spell (which isn't really feasible with Evocation), you'd create a weapon power and then attack each round.  In other words, it's no different from blasting them with a fire blast over the course of the battle, except that if you take them out you have a frog instead of a charred corpse.

Is this how you would do it?  Is this talked about in the book and I missed it?


Thanks,
John B.

[wyvern]

I don't recall seeing anything on that in the books, but yes, that's how I'd do it.

[JosephKell]

The exact words are "The spell is cast like evocation: power first, control later, all done in one exchange."

1.  Evocation doesn't utilize Lore (except as a cap on specializations and max slots on foci), so getting your Lore to meet/beat the Complexity is not necessary.  Complexity still represents total shifts of power necessary, so you "just" have to be able to call up all the power at once (so big rituals are going to blow your mind with consequences).  And you have to successfully control it with Discipline, fortunately you should almost always qualify for a sponsored fate point (see #2 below for why).

So if you have Seelie Magic and want to do a healing spell (which is in their growth portfolio) that has a complexity of 8 to reduce a moderate consequence's healing time to that of a mild consequence (and to justify a beginning to its healing), you need to be able to call up 8 shifts of power.

2.  No sponsored magic gives all types of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation (and some don't give it at all).  In fact, the ritual part of sponsored magic doesn't even give full thaumaturgy, each one specifically lists its area of focus.  Since those that do list their themes and are all tied to the sponsored magic, most usages should qualify for the sponsored invoke.

[jb.teller4]

Thanks for the replies.

Okay, so it has to be in one exchange.  I missed that, but it makes sense.

It still seems to me like for any thaumaturgy effect cast at evocation speed that would normally require you to take them out (beat their defense, fill all their stress, use up all their consequences and have one left over to take them out), that instead you should create a weapon value and attack them and if you take them out, then you succeed.  And I guess if you don't take them out, you don't succeed, since it has to all be done in one exchange.

Since it has to be in one exchange, that means you have to soften them up first and/or build up several aspects to tag or invoke so you can take them out in one hit.  So you spend the first part of the conflict building up for your big transformation spell at the end that hopefully ends the whole fight.  That works just fine for me and fights often go that way anyway.

Also, I understand that no sponsored magic source gives every type of thaumaturgy at evocation speed and that many give none.  I was rereading the sponsored magic section and trying to get my head around how thaumaturgy at evocation speed worked for some of the less straight-forward types of thaumaturgy.  Another example of a thaumaturgy effect that normally requires you to have a Complexity high enough to take them out in one hit is Summoning.

-John B.

[wyvern]

Well, if you're casting it as a single ritual, then it has to overcome all of that in one hit.  I would definitely allow "incremental" transformation effects like you described - but that's not really effective for straight thaumaturgy due to preparation time; by the time you've got a second "attack" built up, the person's probably healed from the first one.

Is, in the end, up to your gaming group though.

[jb.teller4]

Oh, I definitely wouldn't allow incremental attempts with thaumaturgy, just with the "at evocation speed" variety.

-John B.

[Lanir]

I think you're a bit hung up on the weapon comparison. Transformation transforms not damages. What you're talking about is a spell that deep fries your enemies while turning them into frog legs for free. You could do that as a house rule certainly but my understanding is that a transformation spell either transforms or you have to deal with it as a failed spell. Basically what this means is that even loaded up with max Conviction skill and filling up your mental stress track and consequences you're not going to amount to much. On top of that, once you do gather all this power you have to roll to control it, which is another whole mess. To make up the difference on your Discipline roll you have to take physical stress and probably consequences as well. Because if you still want the spell to succeed, you have to absorb the difference as backlash. If you let it get to fallout, the spell fails. And since in this case it's a binary "yes it works / no it doesn't" that means nothing useful to you happens.

End result: You've done a transformation alright. You've transformed your character into something resembling Wile E. Coyote on a bad day and all you got out of it was maybe transforming a squirrel into a rabbit or vice versa. If your spellbook is full of genius like this, you don't need enemies.

[wyvern]

So, how would you model an incremental transformation, if not via physical stress and consequences?  "Taken Out" doesn't have to mean crispy-toasted dead, you know - it can be knocked out, captured, turned into a swan, whatever's appropriate for the conflict at hand.

edit: That said, I'd suggest being wary of using transformation this way - it's essentially attacking with intent to kill, which (as per YS206) something that should be declared in advance of the fight, shouldn't come up all the time, etc.

[mostlyawake]

So, how would you model an incremental transformation, if not via physical stress and consequences?  "Taken Out" doesn't have to mean crispy-toasted dead, you know - it can be knocked out, captured, turned into a swan, whatever's appropriate for the conflict at hand.

edit: That said, I'd suggest being wary of using transformation this way - it's essentially attacking with intent to kill, which (as per YS206) something that should be declared in advance of the fight, shouldn't come up all the time, etc.

I don't see why you wouldn't just use it with repeated consequences, just remember that each stage can't affect the character any more than a normal consequence (which just provides an aspect).   So by severe he isn't half-toad; he's just half-way to toad, maybe causing discoloration, muscle tighteness, ect... but he's not littler or anything that would change his ability to act.  Plus, unless you get all the way to taken out, then those consequences will fade in time.

[Lanir]

My best guess is that's why they went with transformation being an all or nothing thing. It's just a lot easier to manage that way. Most of the time people have a pretty clear idea of the before and after but won't necessarily agree on the in-between. The other potential problem is tracking mixed sources of damage at that point. If you're transforming someone and someone else shoots them, what happens when their stress track fills up? Does it matter if the last thing that happened to them was a spell or a gunshot?

[babel2uk]

My best guess is that's why they went with transformation being an all or nothing thing. It's just a lot easier to manage that way. Most of the time people have a pretty clear idea of the before and after but won't necessarily agree on the in-between. The other potential problem is tracking mixed sources of damage at that point. If you're transforming someone and someone else shoots them, what happens when their stress track fills up? Does it matter if the last thing that happened to them was a spell or a gunshot?

The rules do seem to point to that being the case. Certainly a full transformation explicitly requires a Taken Out result, and the section in the laws of magic stresses how unlikely someone is to survive it (a normal human at any rate). If you want to allow transformation as a less inherently harmfull effect can I suggest that inflicting any Consequence triggers the full physical transformation, and the duration of that transformation is dictated by the level of Consequence inflicted.

The point about tracking different types of damage though is actually fairly irrelevant. The stress track itself isn't actually damage, it's near misses, inconsequential scratches etc. Damage only occurs when you actually take consequences (which itself is basically taking the damage now to allow you a chance at a lucky miss later). The only thing that counts is what caused them to be taken out - and to an extent that's player choice, they can choose to to take an Extreme consequence to deal with the gunshot to give them the possibility of living in a transformed state when the spell causes enough stress to Take them Out. But the chances of survival in that state are slim unless the GM is forgiving - though I suppose you could allow a reverse transformation within a short time as a hope of survival for any mortal without a Wizards Constitution or similar.