Invasion and Enthralling Question

[Thrythlind]

If someone else is invading your mind, and they happen to be there at the moment, is it breaking the Law to, in self defense, tear their minds to pieces?

Assuming you have that level of skill or power, of course.

[Ophidimancer]

Hmm ... in that example you have neither invaded nor enthralled anyone's mind, so I would say no, it's not Lawbreaking.

[JosephKell]

If someone else is invading your mind, and they happen to be there at the moment, is it breaking the Law to, in self defense, tear their minds to pieces?

Assuming you have that level of skill or power, of course.

If you counter attack their mind with magic, it is a violation.

If you are just throwing them out of your mind and it causes them to lose a part of his, that is his own problem.  Or if you "snap your mind shut" which causes a portion of the attacker's mind to be lost.

As I understand it, forcing someone out of your mind doesn't require magic.  Just tremendous will (Discipline or Conviction depending).

And in DFrpg, messing with your mind involves inflicting mental stress then doing consequences.  Getting to the point of sifting through your thoughts means you are already taken out.

[Ophidimancer]

If you counter attack their mind with magic, it is a violation.

Necessarily?

And in DFrpg, messing with your mind involves inflicting mental stress then doing consequences.  Getting to the point of sifting through your thoughts means you are already taken out.

You mean you couldn't just do a Psychomantic Divination?  I didn't see anywhere that you have to do a Take Out to read someone's mind.

[toturi]

Forcing someone out of one's mind may not require magic, is it possible in the first place to use magic to force someone out using magic?

If you counterattack their consciousness with magic within the borders of your own mind, is it a violation?

What if instead of forcing an invader out of your mind, you don't let him leave but draw him in and destroy him on home ground?

[JosephKell]

Necessarily?

If you use magic to rip someone's mind apart, that is a 4th law violation.  You have changed their mind.  Depending on how you go about ripping their mind apart, it may not be a law breaker.  If you blindly tear a mortal's mind apart (with no intention of programming them to a purpose) you might not get a lawbreaker for doing it to a monster (you scrambled without looking in at whatever nastiness is in there).  But to a freewilled mortal?  Definite Lawbreaker.

I would totally insist on a lawbreaker for someone that read the mind of anything.  "When you look into the void, the void looks into you."  I don't want to know what is inside a demon's mind.  The Lawbreakers represent loss of humanity.

You mean you couldn't just do a Psychomantic Divination?  I didn't see anywhere that you have to do a Take Out to read someone's mind.

Of course you didn't see anything about take outs in psychomancy.  There is very little actually there.  All it says is that emotion reading is like Divination.  Se technically Pscyhomancy should only be able to communicate aspects (permanent and temporary) of an emotional or knowledge.

To actually sift through their memories you would have to achieve a take out (203).  And as long as the described take out is in line with the situation it works.  So if your mental attacks were made with the goal of reading their mind (and you have the power to read minds) then you can take the person out and start plucking memories.