Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not

[beachhead1973]

Hi, I couldn't find any info on this in either of the books, but just what kind of tests does the council apply and what sort of difficulty level should I be looking at?

Secondly, becoming a warden, same deal as above, what kind of tests and difficulty am I looking at, post Red Court War?

Finally, I get the impression from all the books that the White Council at least is not a voluntary organization; you either join or...what exactly? Can you get by as a strong practicioner, just going your own way, as long as you stay on the straight and narrow? Partly it's to keep an eye on powerful practicioners (or just wizards?) so you have to take the tests and you have to join, yes? or else what? And how about the Wardens? do you get a choice or are you drafted, more or less?

Oh and another thing; less the white council, more the wardens; what kind of training opportunities do you think these organizations open up? obviously the wardens want their poeople to be able evocators, would there be a minimum standard? How about the council? I can't imagine there is much organized uplift for junior members there.

[Richard_Chilton]

White Council Test:
They test your magical ability.  If you have enough then you're in.  If not, then you aren't a White Council mage BUT must obey all the laws of magic or the Wardens will come and cut off your head.  In one of the books Dresden notes that there are wizard types out there who have been at it for much longer than he has and will never be on the White Council because they will never have the right level of power.  At least one person threw the test, registering as much lower magically than she is.

Warden Test:
At the moment, it seems to be appearing loyal to the White Council and being able to handle yourself in a fight.  I'm sure that there were more qualifications before the war with the Red Court, but since the White Council needs Wardens they are recruiting combat capable mages (Dresden) and trying teenagers.

Training from the White Council / Wardens:
Traditionally someone tested by the White Council get to be an apprentice to someone.  Wardens to be get taken to training camps in remote places to train - but those camps get attacked regularly (at least twice in the books).  They also get lectures and training from Senior Wardens - like Dresden.

Richard

[beachhead1973]

but I think neither are optional, yes?

I mean, if you have power, you get tested. No Choice.

And if you have power and can fight, you HAVE TO serve as a warden, unless you either have some clout (the white council seems like that kind of organization) or are somehow seen as untrustworthy.

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't think that the White Council test is optional because if you have the right level of power then they want you on their team.

But Wardens... I think they can ask you, pressure you, guilt you, but they can't draft you.  In the books Dresden acted as if he thought he could refuse the grey cloak...

Then again, in the game Dresden writes notes about one of the sample characters and how he might get drafted.  Maybe he meant that the wardens would apply pressure for that character to join, but they do say draft...

In other words, I don't think that there is a definitive answer.

Richard

[HappyDaze]

Since the word drafted is used, it might be that the Wardens only push it during wartime.

[The Dread Polack]

Yeah, that's what I get from it. If you're an actual wizard, membership is mandatory. I don't think they'll force you to come to meetings if you aren't interested, but they still keep tabs on all the wizards they know of.

Currently, in the books, Wardens are being drafted, literally, but I would imagine at other times, you would have to display competence at investigation and combat.

[Richard_Chilton]

It think you have to be competent in those areas at all times - or willingness to train to be good at them.

They aren't grabbing academic types from their ivy towers but training kids.  It might be "Congratulations kid! You have enough magical power to train to be a wizard and... No, we don't do owls, that's make believe - we just do real magic.  Anyway, let's look at what specialties you can train for...  No, necromancy is right out, but there's an opening for combat wizards.  Want to toss fireballs and lighting bolts? Um, I don't know what you mean by D six, but welcome to the Wardens!" where before it was left up to the individual to decide what he wanted to train his apprentice as.

Hmm, thinking about that they may have temporarily abandoned the normal apprentice system so they can train troops in camps... Or maybe they are doing a massive "find the kids with magic talents" drive and since there are more kids than people able to train them then the excess get turned over to the Wardens to train.

Anyway, people use the term 'draft' when it's not legally a draft, so I'd say it's left open to the GM to make the call.

Richard

[Elegast]

I would  guess that the council requires evocation, thaumaturgy, the sight and a least +3 in discipline, lore and conviction from its members.

[Kaldra]

the idea of a Draft is could make a verry interesting plot line, a pc or some one the pc's none is blackbagged to be trainded by the council. would be interesting to see how the magical community at large reacted

[beachhead1973]

Thanks, this answers my question very well

[Morgan]

When Harry wanted to become a Warden he was advised that he would need at a minimum 5 N.E.W.T.S. with marks of Exceeds Expectations or higher. 

[Wolfwood2]

I tend to think drafting wardens would be a bad idea.  Exerting a certain amount of social pressure would certainly be fair, but if someone says no you're not going to force them at staffpoint.

Conscript armies have enough problems as it is, and Wardens are both the police force and the army of the White Council.  Your most combat-powerful wizards are not the people you want bitter about having been press-ganged into risking their lives.  Ultimately the sort of missions the wardens undertake simply can't be done by people who aren't doing it voluntarily.

[Bruce Coulson]

And if someone is powerful enough to be on the White Council but says "No, thank you..." 

Then what?

Yes, they have to follow the Laws of Magic.  And they do.  But they don't care about (or are offended) by the Council, don't go to meetings (in fact point blank refuse to go) and ignore any edicts issued other than obeying the Laws.

Now, the White Council can ignore their wishes and claim they are a member anyway.  Other than that...execute people for refusing to join?  Probably not going to work out well.

[Richard_Chilton]

Then why did Harry's foster sister act dumb and fail the test?

I don't see them letting any powerhouses run around as rogues.  Everyone important has to join or else... Well let's Tom didn't want to join.  He later meets Dick, who doesn't want to join, and the two of them run into Harry (not Dresden, another guy named Harry) who doesn't want to join.  The three of them start getting together as the Tom, Dick, and Harry social club - having dinner once a month.  Then they get a few apprentices and before you know it the Tom, Dick, and Harry Circle is an alternative to the White Council.  A small, insignificant alternative, but one of hundreds of little circles out there...

And let's say Tom, Dick, and Harry live in England and during WWII they use their powers to help the allies win while some German groups use their powers to counter that - before you know there's a wizard war and people are breaking the laws of magic for the best of reasons.

The White Council doesn't want that to happen.  They can't allow it to happen. 

(click to show/hide)

One of their problems with Harry's mother is she wanted the council to get involved in social justice and that would eventually lead to splitting the council on national lines

.  If the Wizards fight among themselves the Monsters win.

I see the White Council as akin to a medieval  or early renascence Trade Guild.  Do you know what happened to trades men who refused to join those guilds? Well, they joined, were chased out of town, or eventually killed.  The glass makers were infamous for killing apprentices who might share their secrets.  For a guild to work it has to have a monopoly on the trade or it will be undercut.

So yes, I see White Council as a "join us or die" type group.

But maybe they aren't open about it.  Maybe if a young wizard-to-be refuses to join they manipulate things so that he's tempted to break the laws of magic and once he's done that they "kill the warlock" to make the world a safer place.  Or maybe they are the only ones who can awaken True Power in potential wizards.  Either way, if you're good enough then you're a member of the club whether you want to be or not.

Of course these are just my opinions, but they make sense to me.

Richard

[toturi]

The White Council doesn't want that to happen.  They can't allow it to happen. 

(click to show/hide)

One of their problems with Harry's mother is she wanted the council to get involved in social justice and that would eventually lead to splitting the council on national lines

.  If the Wizards fight among themselves the Monsters win.

So yes, I see White Council as a "join us or die" type group.

Why can't they allow it to happen? Wizards already fight among themselves. The various factions within the White Council is proof that it already has happened. See the problem here is while the White Council can make it "join us or die", the White Council isn't the only club in town. You end up with people who must band together if only just to get the White Council to back off. If the White Council end up killing their prospective members, then the monsters already won. White Council level talent isn't common; if you kill a talented prospect, you can't recruit him later. The White Council are long-lived, they can take the long view. You might not join us now, you might join us later. There's no need for permanent solutions as long as the person doesn't break any of the Laws.