Author Topic: [Analysis] I "think" I found a way to calculate the Danger a characte represents  (Read 4873 times)

Offline dindenver

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Luminos,
  On the same link is a tab called Raw Data. I don't know how it appears in the TML only view, but I did tell Google Docs to publish all tabs.

  Well, I thought about Maneuvers and Blocks. But in the end, it uses the same stats (A Skill) and simply banks Shifts for another turn.

  If you want to PM me your e-mail address, I can grant you access to the actual sheet, if it is not showing enough data.
Or, you can try this link:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AoGF0nJQdKAOdEtJQVZ0ajd3bFVwZnU1ZmxzR09Zb1E&hl=en#gid=1
Maye it will show it in Spreadsheet mode and not html mode?

  There is one mechanic that I am having trouble evaluating. It's the Fate Point. Seems like it could be valued at 2 Defense Points, but I don't "feel" like Fate Points are always used to Tag Aspects to defend the character. But I haven;t played enough to get a solid grip on how often it is used for offense..

Offline dindenver

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Belial,
  You mean to tell me a character with Mythic Strength can't throw things more than one zone? That doesn't sound right at all...
  I'll have to look that up, because that doesn't make sense.

Offline JosephKell

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I think a simple way to figure out "character threat" would be to sum up all the powers that can apply to a given action for offense, then sum up all defensive powers, then add each to the applicable skills.

So a black court vampire (OW 85) would have an offensive values.
Physical (9)
- Fists: 3
- Blood Drinker: 1
- Inhuman Speed: 1 (normally 2, but only initiative and ignore supplemental action penalty for moving apply for offense)
- Weapon:4

Mental (6)
- Discipline: 3
- Attacks Mental Stress: 1 (this an arbitrary value I assign to the ability to attack mental stress, since non-practitioners/non-feeding dependent characters have low Discipline)
- Inhuman Speed: 1
- Blood Drinker: 1
- Weapon:0

Social (2)
- Intimidation: 2
- Blood Drinker could apply, but usually by the time you are drinking people's blood, you've already won.

Then it has defenses
Physical 13 (Dodging 4, 7 stress boxes)
- Athletics: 3
- Inhuman Speed: 1
- Armor:2
Mental 5 (Discipline 3, 2 stress boxes)
Social 2 (Rapport 0, 2 stress boxes)

Ability to do maneuvers is similar to the ability to attack, you just ignore anything having to do with Weapon/Armor.
If you have to ask, it probably breaks a Law of Magic.  You're just trying to get the Doom of Damocles.

Offline Lanir

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Let me say first off that although I was thinking of a different approach, I don't see any massive problems with the original idea by dindenver. There will always be differing opinions on exactly how to compare the effectiveness of things and I'm sure in time he'd want to tweak a few values here and there but I understand the desire to have an "at a glance" effectiveness rating.

As far as the idea I was thinking of, I'm still working on how to do the math right. So far what I'm looking at is subtracting the defensive skill from the offensive skill. Then (and this is the part I don't have mathed out yet) using something like the 4dF chart on this webpage http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/frp/fudge/dice.html to map out a damage curve. Basically work out a chart of what damage would be done without adding weapon ratings on all die roll results and multiplying that by the percentage chance of rolling that result. I had some numbers done up but realized they were skewed as I was writing this: they didn't take into account the additional damage from rolling higher than you need to. Here's the basic equation I would use anyway.

S = static damage per round from skill alone
C = chance to hit
W = weapon rating (if any)
D = average damage per round

S + (C * W) = D

You'd get both C and S from the comparison of the offensive and defensive skills. So far I have C figured but not S, I neglected to figure in the additional damage from rolling higher than you need to. The eventual chart from this will only have about 9 columns and generally speaking you'll only want to see the middle 5 or so. Rolling a -3 or -4 on the dice has a combined likelihood of about 6%. So for any of you that have played D&D, that's roughly similar to telling someone they need to roll a 20 to hit (if defensive skill is 3 or more above the offensive skill) or a 1 to miss (if offensive skill is 3 or more above the defensive skill). Oh, quick note: If you're not using a weapon the equation pretty much simplifies to S = D.

This is only the start of course. Next you have to do another equation but this one I think you can just eyeball rather than get into the math much.

A = armor value
L = length of the stress track
D = average damage per round from equation above
E = number of exchanges it would likely take for the offense to force consequences upon the defense

L / (D - A) = E

Basically you subtract the armor from your average damage you got from the last equation. Divide the length of the stress track by that and you have a rough idea of how many exchanges the offense would need to tag the defense.


Things this wouldn't take into account:
- Fate Points: If you think they'd be in use a lot just factor them into the offensive or defensive skill (wherever you think you'd see them).
- Aspects: Same as fate points above.
- Catches: I don't think there's any possible way to math out a Catch. As a GM you have to just know if your group will work around it or not. If there's a chance it could go either way then be prepared to deal with either possibility.
-Range: I'm just assuming everyone is smart enough to shoot a gun at someone they can't (or don't want to) close with. If they're a speed demon jumping in and out of range, wait and act when they get near.

All of these depend on the playstyle of your group (such as fate point usage and catches) or have common sense solutions (such as range issues).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 06:30:28 AM by Lanir »

Offline luminos

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The interesting thing that this thread has revealed for me is that the game uses a very simple conflict system, one that is easy to grasp and play with.  But it is incredibly complex when trying to come up with a pure numbers computation of relative effectiveness.  I'm now convinced that just to get an accurate representation of attacking and defending, and nothing else, would require a very involved statistical analysis.
Lawful Chaotic

Offline dindenver

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Luminos,
  I dunno, I think the trick is to not get distracted by things that are a wash. Like a block, in play, is very different from just defending yourself. BUT, every character can block, and they use their defense skill to do it. The trick is to look at just the things that are statted out., right?
  And it doesn't have to be 100% accurate, it just has to reduce the odds that two seemingly matched characters are in fact going to result in a short and pointless fight, right?

  Honestly this kind of analysis won't help with character optimization and won't respond well to "comboes", but barring that, it will be a good way to gauge if two cahracters are in an even fight or not..

Offline dindenver

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Updated version is here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AoGF0nJQdKAOdEtJQVZ0ajd3bFVwZnU1ZmxzR09Zb1E&hl=en

Or here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AoGF0nJQdKAOdEtJQVZ0ajd3bFVwZnU1ZmxzR09Zb1E&hl=en&output=html

  I don't know which version is "prettier" but I updated it by calculating the value of a free FP.

  Basically, I took the value of invoking an Aspect and divided it by the average length of a battle. I calculated the value or a re-roll  and divided it by the average length of a battle.
  Also, I renamed O-Aspect and D-Aspect to O-Stunt and D-Stunt, since an Aspect Requires a Fate Point and Stunts do not.
  I did tweak some of the maths, but it didn't change the values much.

  Also, I did "try" and calculate a 2-on-1 battle and it seems like the numbers scale well-enough in multi-player battles.

  If you click on the tabs, it should help you see the maths behind the values. Let me know what you think, ok?