A Rules Sbtlety Passing Me By

[yogshog]

Having read the RPG books (and loving them), I do have a specific system question. why in the world would you cast a shield spell as a block instead of armor? If I’m reading it correctly, if you treat it as a block, the attack has to get past the higher of the two rolls (block and defense) while if it’s treated as armor, the attack has to get past their sum.
Am I missing something?

[JesterOC]

The armor value is 1/2 the block value.

I would say if your block is a lower than double your normal dodge, it is better to turn it to armor, but if it is higher then a straight block is better.

Removed bogus chart.. Too many variables to make a new chart at the moment.
See below for good explanation.

[wyvern]

Yes, you're missing a couple of things.  The first is that blocks get applied before weapon rating, while armor gets applied after - so a guy with a weapon: 3 rifle, who rolls a 3 to hit, would miss a block: 4 shield, but could still hit (for a minimum of one stress) against armor: 2.

The other is that an evocation specialist is likely to have the ability to call up a block in notable excess of their normal defense skill.  So, yeah, if you've got an athletics of 5, and maybe inhuman speed or something, you'd want the armor instead of the block.  But if you've got a normal defense of +2 or +3, but conviction 5 and some appropriate specializations or focus items, that block starts to look like a pretty good deal.

And then there's the question of enchanted items, which is where block type shields really shine.  Why?  Well, say some guy ambushes you, tags a couple of aspects he set up while you weren't looking, and you roll badly on your defense.  You could easily be looking at a 10 stress hit, there.  So you can start burning fate points to try and get your defense up... or you can mark off a use of your enchanted item and instantly promote that -2 defense roll you got to an effective +4 (or whatever).

In other words, the armor provides a minimal benefit any time someone would hit you; the block prevents hits, and helps cover for you if things go really wrong.

[yogshog]

and all is made clear

[JesterOC]

Thanks for the clarification, I forgot that part. Armor only helps after the hit.

[JesterOC]

Ok here is a new chart. It is a bit complicated but I was surprised at the results.

S= Stress taken
AR = Attack roll
WS = Weapon Strength (Running from 2 to the Attack Roll)
Df = Defense skill value
Av = Armor value
Block = Block Value

I assumed a PC with Def of 2 and choosing between armor 2 or block 4 vs different powered weapons and skill levels of attack.
Notice that the values of the attack are the same once the block is breached. Armor is still better if the effect has duration, because it will stay when breached.

S  AR WS Df Av Block 1   3   2   2   2   0 0   3   2   2   0   4 2   3   3   2   2   0 0   3   3   2   0   4 2   4   2   2   2   0 2   4   2   2   0   4 3   4   3   2   2   0 3   4   3   2   0   4 4   4   4   2   2   0 4   4   4   2   0   4 3   5   2   2   2   0 3   5   2   2   0   4 4   5   3   2   2   0 4   5   3   2   0   4 5   5   4   2   2   0 5   5   4   2   0   4 6   5   5   2   2   0 6   5   5   2   0   4 4   6   2   2   2   0 4   6   2   2   0   4 5   6   3   2   2   0 5   6   3   2   0   4 6   6   4   2   2   0 6   6   4   2   0   4 7   6   5   2   2   0 7   6   5   2   0   4 8   6   6   2   2   0 8   6   6   2   0   4

[wyvern]

Well, the results are exactly because you assumed a defense value of two, to armor two and block four, which makes the overall damage reduction on a successful hit equal.  You'd get a rather different chart if, say, that was defense one, or defense three, or etc.

Let's consider another example.  You're under attack by a super-powered ninja (fists 5), who's got inhuman strength (making those fists attacks count as weapon: 2).  You're a moderately competent evoker, capable of casually calling up a block six or armor 3 shield, and you've got a defensive item worth block 8 or armor 4 if you choose to activate it... but your athletics is merely a 3.

Average attack - you roll a zero for defense, and the other guy rolls a zero to attack.
He hits with two shifts, plus two for weapon rating, for a total of a four stress hit.  On the other hand, if you have up any of your block shields, he's going to miss.  If you've got armor: 4, he hits, but does nothing; if you've got armor: 3, he hits for one stress.

Worst case attack: you roll a -4 for defense, and the other guy rolls +4 to attack.
He hits with ten shifts, plus two for weapon rating, for a 12 stress hit.  If you have block six up, that's a mere five stress hit.  If you've got block eight up, it's a three stress hit.  Armor, on the other hand, would only reduce that by three or four points, leaving you with at best an eight stress hit to deal with.  Or, if you've already got a block six shield active, you can activate that defensive item for armor and take only a one stress hit; if you've got an armor three shield already active, you can also use the defensive item for block 8 and take nothing.  Though, in all of these cases, whatever block you're using is going down after that one hit.

On a best case attack, of course, he just plain misses, and it doesn't matter what defensive spells you've got running.

There are, of course, a lot of possible intermediate grounds inbetween these three scenarios.

[infusco]

A straight block is best when your defensive skill (Athletics normally) is quite low. The idea behind a block is that it *completely* negates damage if the attack roll cannot surpass the block. So some clumsy super strong monster with a Weapons skill of +2 and a weapons rating+strength of 6 would be completely useless against a block of +5 most of the time. No damage is inflicted since you simply cannot be hit.

Whereas if you're pretty damned agile with a high Athletics rating, there's no sense in creating a block who's skill is only slightly higher than your Athletics when you could create an armor and just try to soak the blow. Armor is also much more useful when dealing with someone trying to stab you with a pocket knife or shoot you with a low caliber pistol since you'll probably just end up soaking up the damage anyways. The other (significant) advantage of armor is that it won't collapse if you get hit, unlike a straight block. So it would kinda really suck to spend a ton of shifts on a block that last 4 rounds if someone clears it on the 1st.

[JesterOC]

Well, the results are exactly because you assumed a defense value of two, to armor two and block four, which makes the overall damage reduction on a successful hit equal.  You'd get a rather different chart if, say, that was defense one, or defense three, or etc.

I chose those numbers because I thought that would represent a "typical"* wizard, one not pure combat based, and not pure lore based. If I would start changing much else the table would have been huge.

One thing that this discussion shows off is that the system produces a fairly complex matrix when factoring in accuracy, defense, weapon power and armor. Much more nuanced that I had originally been thinking.

JesterOC

* Of course I have no idea what a true typical wizard would look like.

[caul]

Worst case attack: you roll a -4 for defense, and the other guy rolls +4 to attack.
He hits with ten shifts, plus two for weapon rating, for a 12 stress hit.  If you have block six up, that's a mere five stress hit.  If you've got block eight up, it's a three stress hit.  Armor, on the other hand, would only reduce that by three or four points, leaving you with at best an eight stress hit to deal with.  Or, if you've already got a block six shield active, you can activate that defensive item for armor and take only a one stress hit; if you've got an armor three shield already active, you can also use the defensive item for block 8 and take nothing.  Though, in all of these cases, whatever block you're using is going down after that one hit.

...emphasis mine...

Is this correct?  I thought that a block either cancelled a hit or not?

[wyvern]

This is correct.  A block functions as a replacement for your defense roll.  So, for example (assuming your defense roll is too low to be relevant), a block 4 versus an attack roll of 5 produces a one shift hit (plus weapon rating), while block 2 versus that same attack roll would produce a three shift hit (plus weapon rating).

[caul]

Worst case attack: you roll a -4 for defense, and the other guy rolls +4 to attack.
He hits with ten shifts, plus two for weapon rating, for a 12 stress hit.  If you have block six up, that's a mere five stress hit.  If you've got block eight up, it's a three stress hit.

Ah, I see.  This is still wrong then.  The block 6 would leak a 7 stress hit (4 + 2 weapon), and the block 8 would leak a 4 stress hit (2 + 2 weapon) according to the example.  Is this correct?

[wyvern]

In that example, the attack had a skill of five, and a roll of +4, for a total attack value of 9 (at weapon: 2).  Thus, block 6 leaves three shifts of effect, plus two from weapon rating, for the listed five stress hit, while a block 8 would leave only one shift of effect, plus the two from weapon rating, for the listed three stress hit.

edit: Whereas the unblocked hit, going against a defense skill of 3 with a roll of -4 (for a total defense of -1), would be ten shifts of effect.  Plus two from weapon rating, produces the original 12 shift hit if there's no active block.