[BBEG] One vs. Many Sizing

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Unfortunately, I have a HUGE group (8 players).
  I am planning on using a Loup Garou (as suggested by one of the threats added by a member of the group) for an initial confrontation.
  But at some point, I need to do a small group of BBEGs in order to face the group as a whole.
  But this is not D&D. I can't just give them 2x the number of HPs as the best PC and I have a viable threat.

  So, based on that, how do I scale a small group of NPCs to face a large group of PCs? How do I put a "challenge rating" on an NPC and then use it to effectively face a lare group?

  I know there are certain Powers that will give me longevity or higher damage output, is that all I can do or is there more clever techniques?

[crusher_bob]

First, just having the BBEG have a full suite of consequences makes him considerably tougher, that's another 12 (or even 20) stress he can soak up before he's taken out.

Add in some toughness and recovery, and the BBEG can keep going for a considerable amount of time.

[mostlyawake]

As far as i can tell, keeping opponents within 2 or 3 refresh of your gaming level seems to make sense, esp. for npc mortal casters. Two  -9 pc wizards aren't taking down a -18 npc wizard, but they can probably face a -11 wizard and his -7 underling, or three -6 wizards.

The last combat i ran was 5 -9 refresh characters, 45 levels total, facing a -20 wizard, a -14 monster, and two -5 wizards (-44 refresh)... but the -20 guy could have toasted them if he went full throttle (he had other parts to play). I mean, refinement on specialization and focus items can really put a wizard in a different class.

[JosephKell]

I have noticed that 1 on Many never ends well for the 1.  My group calls it "Robocopping" because the players get so many consecutive actions that they tend to be shooting the solo guy like the famous early scene in Robocop.

It is all about action economy.  The many just have so much advantage from additional actions that it really doesn't matter.

The only way is to make the 1 so strong as to invalidate actions that don't include invokes.  But that is just going to ruin the party (it is one thing to have a difficulty 1, 2, or 3 higher than you skill, and even that could ruin the party).

Even throwing in nameless guys that are just there to set up maneuvers or blocks is important.

This can also apply to social conflicts.  In those I suggest mixing social styles (both skills and the actions they take: attacks, maneuvers, blocks).

[Belial666]

Well, Loup-Garou is -21 refresh. Even if a hundred low-refresh characters blasted it, unless they had inherited silver it would do nothing to it.

As for making a "tough" BBEG, here are a few ideas;

Mythic Toughness + Hulking Size + Nimble (negates bonus to hit stunt) + fantastic athletics;
For 6-8 refresh (depending on catch), the character has stress track of OOOOOO(OOOOOO) and they defend at +6 and they have armor 3. Half the attacks are going to miss at least. of those that hit, reduce stress by 3. This means that a group of 4 at 10 refresh will need at least 7 exchanges to win vs the beastie.

Mythic Speed + Fantastic athletics + acrobat;
For 7 refresh, the character defends at olympic (+9) vs melee attacks and at ridiculous (+10) vs ranged attacks. Most attacks will miss. As in, nine out of ten vs a submerged group.

Physical Immunity with Catch: all attacks deal stress but only half stress
That's the quick-and-dirty way to scale a BBEG. For 4 refresh, you effectively double its resilience.



Now, if you want something damn hard to kill but technically killable, give it ALL of the above for -17 refresh. I reserve this for really big nasties like medium dragons, big demons, incarnate Fallen, very powerful sidhe and elementals and lesser outsiders. These are in the lowest end of the supernatural heavyweights.

[mostlyawake]

One vs many doesn't even really work on in D&D, if the players coordinate their actions and act smart.  It's too easy to go "red dragon?", gear up, switch tactics, and own that battle.  Even for a friggin' dragon. 

So, the BBEG either needs helpers OR other events.  The spiderman movie "save this trolley full of people, or this trolley with your woman in it" type scenario is a useful (if cliche) example... you really want to just pwn the guy, but now you have to achieve 2 other goals. 

Another thing is, if you plan on using recurring BBEGs, those lackeys take hits, giving the characters a chance to feel that they had some influence, even if the BBEG comes off clean.  In the battle I listed above, the -20 wizard took no damage (just stress from his own spells), but his two -6 lackeys each took a bullet to the leg (moderate consequences).  So the group feels like "hey we were outgunned there" instead of like "hey the DM set us up to fail!".

[DFJunkie]

In my fairly limited experience it's nearly impossible for a BBEG to survive without a really good Athletics.  I made the mistake of throwing a hulking demon at them, and even though it was about -25 refresh (they total about -24) they smacked it down like a little bitch in about two exchanges.  Damn wizards.

I also think that if you set the BBEG's Athletics at Fantastic or even Epic, while leaving it's other skills relatively low it encourages the players to use more maneuvers instead of a succession of direct attacks, which IMO makes for a richer and more interesting combat.

[Belial666]

@mostlyawake;
I beg to differ. I've built quite a few technically appropriate DnD BBEGs that could take whatever the party could throw at them. Dragons with DC 60 breath weapons and 62 touch AC (without buffs!), eldritch horrors with decent spellcasting and disintegrate/stasis/tk/counterspell beams/cones as free actions, abominations that eat spells and blows like candy and my DnD conversion of Doomsday (the guy that killed superman) that's all but immortal, has ridiculous DR and immunities, has about 2000 HP, and deals 250 damage per attack at +70 to hit. And he gets six attacks/round.

@DFJunkie;
A stunt to shift physical defense to, say, endurance or might instead of athletics. Or you could take immunity to magic like the Ogre has for -3 refresh.

[dindenver]

Cool, that is some good advice so far.

Yeah, so we will have 8 refresh 10 characters:
Cheryl - Wizard
Eric - Pure Mortal
Tom - Knight of the Cross
Nate - Emissary of a Dragon
Lawrence - Red-Court Infected
Christy - Valkyrie
Casey - Terra-like Wolf who can take human form
Jen - Kitsune (Shapeshifting, trickster fox spirit)

Most of these have spent 6-8 of their Refresh and have ideas to buy more powers for the lower total characters.

  Yeah, I was thinking the sole character is going down like a clown.. I really want to give the players a need to develop their team tactics and generally wake them up to the scarey level of power they signed up for.

  Then follow that up with a small group of maybe 4 characters that are a more legitimate threat to the group. But, I dunno how the math works to make a cool threat will be able to survive a few rounds and won't flatten the PCs...

[MijRai]

Cool, that is some good advice so far.

Yeah, so we will have 8 refresh 10 characters:
Cheryl - Wizard
Eric - Pure Mortal
Tom - Knight of the Cross
Nate - Emissary of a Dragon
Lawrence - Red-Court Infected
Christy - Valkyrie
Casey - Terra-like Wolf who can take human form
Jen - Kitsune (Shapeshifting, trickster fox spirit)

Most of these have spent 6-8 of their Refresh and have ideas to buy more powers for the lower total characters.

  Yeah, I was thinking the sole character is going down like a clown.. I really want to give the players a need to develop their team tactics and generally wake them up to the scarey level of power they signed up for.

  Then follow that up with a small group of maybe 4 characters that are a more legitimate threat to the group. But, I dunno how the math works to make a cool threat will be able to survive a few rounds and won't flatten the PCs...

I suggest splitting them up. Don't let all 8 hang around, pimp-slapping the competition in a unified front. Give a few of them business at one side of town, send others on a different errand, maybe have a chase, and have the ones who get left behind deal with something else. Spread the PC love.

[dindenver]

Yeah, with 8 players, there is no way I am going to ruin it as multiple groups. Not only wlould it be painfully boring for the non-active group, but it would be nigh-impossible for me to keep it all straight...

[MijRai]

Yeah, with 8 players, there is no way I am going to ruin it as multiple groups. Not only wlould it be painfully boring for the non-active group, but it would be nigh-impossible for me to keep it all straight...

It wouldn't have a non-active group, the way I see it. A GM would go player-by-player, and things would go into a cycle. I can see how it could get all mixed up though...

[dindenver]

MijRai,
  You are right, of course. Normally, I would do just that. But right now, I am involved in 4 weekly games and I just don't have the concentration to split one of those games into a virtual fifth one and keep it all straight.
  I am less worried about the BBEG going down like a clown (it's almost inevitable with a group that large) and more worried about killing off the group...
  Is it just as simple as balancing Offense, Defense and Fortitude along wiht weapons and armor, or is there some sort of way I can just track it through total refresh or refresh spent on powers or?