Reworking the DFRPG/Fate system for use in a superhero game: brainstorm thread

[HobbitGuy1420]

So, I've seen a couple threads statting out superheroes with the existing DFRPG rules, but not much on the use of the system for an actual superhero game.  To that end, I'm creating this thread as a place to brainstorm a good conversion of the DFRPG rules to a superhero system. 

And yes, I know they're coming out with a FATE-inspired system for superhero games soon.  That's soon, this is now.

This is for a general superhero game, encompassing as wide a range of comic styles as possible.  For variations to represent Dark Age-esque gritty adventures or Gold- and Silver-age ultrapowerful or silly scenarios, it'd be good to note them as such.

My current thoughts:

Compared to a standard Dresden Files RPG game, a superhero game would probably run on the *very* high power level.  I could easily see Refresh levels of 14 to 20, with Skill numbers anywhere from 40 to 60 and with correspondingly-higher Skill caps.  The Refresh bonus for unpowered Mortals (such as Batman or similar archetypes) might need to be given a corresponding increase.

A good number of existing superhero conventions can be represented with the current power-set.  Some abilities can probably remain as they are (Breath Weapon, for example, would be useful to represent a wide variety of blast or beam-style powers) while others may need to be expanded (the speed, toughness, recovery, and strength powers might need even more tiers) or even reworked entirely (I'm uncertain if the spellcasting system as it currently exists would represent superhero-style powers well).  I'm not certain, but the Skill system may also need some revamping.

Specific thoughts: 
for a Superhero game, I might make Catches optional on Toughness and Recovery powers other than Physical Immunity, as there are a good number of superheroes who are just darn tough and resilient, bar nothing.  Conversely, I might create a Catch-like system that applies to other powers as well - much like how Superman's superpowers get taken away by Kryptonite at the same time it hurts him.  There would, much like in the original DFRPG, be a limit to the amount of catch-stacking one could do. 

I'm not sure why, but I thought that it might be appropriate to limit Powers to no more than 3/4 of a character's Refresh, requiring stunts for anything beyond that.  Not sure why, other than the fact that Powers are more powerful than Stunts, and thus the cumulative advantage granted by a bunch of Powers is greater than that granted by a bunch of Stunts.

I'd grant another level of Speed, Strength, and Recovery above Mythic.  For Toughness, once you hit that level it's pretty much Physical Immunity anyway.  I might also allow for an upgrade of the Claws power, to represent high-damage characters who don't get it via superstrength. 

the Item of Power rules would be applicable in full force, to represent power rings, ultra-gauntlets, supersuits, and powered armor. 

[Belial666]

Stunts stack with powers even further. So having stunts mandatory does not make a character less powerful - only more focused. Assuming a refresh of 20, skill cap fantastic, compare the two following ability sets;

1) Mythic Strength, Titanic Toughness (with +3 catch), Inhuman Speed, Supernatural Recovery, Wings, IoP Longsword with True Strike, Holy and Flaming (+2 fire dmg)

2) Mythic Strength, Titanic Toughness (with +3 catch), Inhuman Recovery, Wings, IoP Sword with True Strike, Holy and Flaming (+2 fire dmg)
Weapon Focus (+1 skill with swords), Footwork, Off-hand Weapon Training, Two-weapon Parry (+2 to defense rolls with weapons when dual-wielding).


The first guy has +7 attack, Weapon 13, dodge 7, and really good recovery.
The second guy has +8 attack, Weapon 15 if he picks up another longsword (which he does), dodge +10 (!). He loses some in speed and recovery but he's a monster in melee.

[TheMouse]

How much work you have to do depends a lot on what exact scale of supers you were interested in, and what flavour.

Something like the show 4400 probably wouldn't require all that much. You'd get a lot of focused practitioners and folks with one or two powers. The show has fairly gritty combat, so you don't really need to change anything about that. This is pretty much out of the box running of supers.

Spiderman scale would require a little boost. You've got characters that can throw cars, sometimes what I'd consider to be a couple of zones. This scale pretty much tops out what Dresden does without adding a whole tier of powers. Someone like Venom regularly throws automobiles across the street and shrugs off gun fire and similar feats, which the rules can represent if you hand out 20 or 30 Refresh.

If you want to accurately represent cosmic level supers, you're going to have to add several tiers of power. When characters can fly well over the speed of sound, lift entire large buildings, and the like, you're pretty much working without a net. Dresden might not be the best base to use for something like that.

So what sort of supers game were you thinking about? One where you can cover the whole range of what it means to be a super in any number of settings gets to be a little rough, especially if you want to try to mix them. A bit narrower focus is your friend here.

[Belial666]

Well, someone with Mythic levels of strength and Legendary might has an effective Might of +20 for lifting/breaking stuff. Someone who also has Hulking Size and the various might stunts has as much as +24 effective might.

Considering that +12 is enough to smash vault doors and use cars as weapons and +16 would be enough to use locomotives as thrown weapons and walk through steel walls without even slowing down, strength-wise the system is sufficient.

The problem with cosmic-level supers is the wide-area energy attacks, not the physical abilities.

[HobbitGuy1420]

Ideally, I'd like a system that, given the proper amount of refresh, could represent low-level powers such as Daredevil, unpowered-but-formidable folks like Batman, and a moderate-but-accurate representation of Superman.

[TheMouse]

Which version of Superman? His capabilities have varied a lot depending on where he's being represented. Are we talking the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound, or flying around the world in less than a second?

[Belial666]

Superman

[-6] Mythic Strength
[-3] Tremendous Blows - superman's fists are rolled at weapons+2 and have a weapon rating of 4. (this is a physical equivalent to incite emotion in effectiveness)
[-5] Energy Attack - superman has a breath weapon of both eyebeams and actual breath (-3), at weapon rating 4 (-1), with increased range (-1)
[-2] Multiattack - superman may attack all targets in a zone due to his superspeed, effectively doing spread attacks. He may either spread his weapon rating with fast, accurate but weak blows or his attack roll, with powerful but badly aimed blows. (two stunts)
[-6] Mythic Toughness
[+4] Catch - Kryptonian radiation and Magic
[-4] Nigh Invulnerable - halve all physical stress dealt to superman. (this is half a physical immunity - catch is kryptonite)
[-4] Healing Factor - in broad daylight, superman heals up his highest filled stress box every exchange. He can suvive without food, water and air about 100 times longer than a human being and, given time, can recover from consequences. (this is half a physical immunity - catch is darkness)
[-4] Supernatural Speed
[-1] Flight
[-6] Superspeed - multiply the number of zones superman can move in any movement action by a factor of 4. When sprinting, he can keep up with most things, being able to move a mile per exchange. When sprinting in a frictionless environment where nothing slows him down (such as in space when carrying no significant weight) he can accelerate by that amount in each exchange instead - but would also need to spend a similar number of exchanges to slow down. Whether he has an upper speed is unknown though the speed of light is probably the hard upper limit.
[-3] Senses - superman has thermal vision, x-ray vision, telescopic vision, microscopic vision, acute hearing and broadband hearing. (each sense takes up 2 senses slots because it is significantly powerful)

This is my version of superman. For most heroes, adapting/reflavoring existing powers is usually enough. Extended guidelines in to how to do that effectively and a few example powers should be enough.

[the wizard]

also check out http://www.apocalypse-engine.com/

[Mattastic]

There's a FATE superhero game in the works?
Link, info?
Please.

[Arcteryx]

Rick Neal blogged about a couple of sessions of ICONS, a 4-color superhero game running on a derivative of FATE or something close to it. Waiting for it to show up at my FLGS, it sounds intriguing.

[Lanir]

Umm... I may be missing something but wouldn't Spirit of the Century with possibly a few tweaks handle the skilled hero type pretty well? I don't have that particular game but pulp heroes and modern skilled heroes are mainly different in attitude and what setting they operate in. The Dresden Files powers seem relatively decent to map out lower to mid level powered individuals.

Really the big thing here is trying to make a balance between how much of the purely physical powers get taken. Basic reasoning there is that while those powers don't necessarily have the same amount of flash as other tricks, they're a real shot in the arm as far as power goes.

For most purposes you should probably remove evocation and thaumaturgy. Probably ritual too. The only thing you'd want to keep is probably channeling, which you could use to represent all sorts of things just by getting a bit creative with the element involved. In general spellcasters in the supers genre get more physical buffness to match the setting closer and in return get less versatility than a fantasy setting would give them.

Probably one of the easier ways to make people tougher is just to lengthen the stress tracks a little..  As mentioned above the claws and breath weapon abilities can be adapted for any melee or ranged weaponry. What's left that you'd want to do?

[SaintAndSinner]

Strands of FATE can handle supers.  It should be out very soon.

http://www.generic-rpg.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7

[Arcteryx]

Strands of FATE can handle supers.  It should be out very soon. http://www.generic-rpg.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7

On that note, I just remembered one of the designers for Legends of Anglerre (fantasy RPG for FATE) saying on RPG.net that its capable of running god and demigod-type power levels - so that could be another resource as well.

[Lanir]

Yeah Fate should be able to handle lots of different power levels. The main thing there is having enough things to spend your refresh on. Using the out of the box DFRPG as an example, past a certain point (20 or 30 refresh maybe?) you'd end up with a lot of the character ideas converging simply because there's only so many powers and stunts to spend refresh on. Fate scales better to different power levels than a lot of systems simply because of how the dice are rolled. Other system designs like the White Wolf Storyteller system run into too many dice at some point and while the law of averages should be on your side, that's not much consolation when you roll a bunch of ones on 8 or 10 dice. And the d20 system D&D uses is pretty bad as well because the random element is going to potentially equal or exceed your actual skill bonus until around level 12 or so even if you go to some pretty extreme lengths to add to it.

The only real scaling problem you'll run into with Fate after awhile is an issue of one character's strength just flat out trumping anything someone else can do in that particular area. You can already arrange for that to happen with the out of the box DFRPG rules (e.g. a character with okay ratings in Might, Fists and some level of Strength power). But as you scale up the max skill rank you allow for a similar effect with skill alone. You can kind of see this coming by planning for every roll to be in the -2 to +2 range. Any roll outside of that range is rare enough you can pretty much consider it a fluke.

[exploding_brain]

DFRPG handles two of the general types of powers you need for a supers game, and does it pretty well.  There's magic for your Dr. Strange and Raven, and there's all the other stuff for your Superman, Wolverine, Hulk, etc.  Some will be in the middle (Cyclops could be a focused practitioner, Channeling (Force), or a dude with a breath weapon, depending on how you want it to work. Green Lantern is basically a wizard or sorcerer, but it all comes from an Item of Power, plus mortal stunts.)

What you don't have a lot of support for is the gadget guy/super scientist.  I'd suggest combining the gadget rules from Spirit of the Century with the focus item/enchanted items rules from DFRPG.

You'd have to re-work the skill list, but that's true of almost any Fate game.  Specifically, Science, Lore, Mysteries, Cosmic knowledge, Engineering, and so forth would need to be adjusted so that Batman can hack into an alien computer, or just happen to have Kryptonite Ring in a Justice League level game, even if the Streets of Gotham version of Batman couldn't.