Physical Immunity and maneuers/aspects?

[Belial666]

OK, physical immunity protects you from stress. Does it also protect from maneuers?

I.e. could one use ice magic on the Loup-Garou to apply the aspect "frozen solid" ?
Could one use earth magic on the Loup-Garou to apply the aspect "buried in concrete" ?

Can a character with Supernatural strength and superb might grab Nicodemus and tie him up with chains?
Can said character use a few railroad spikes instead to apply "crucifiction reenactment, now with extra-large nails" ?
Can said character use a 2-inch-thick rebar that he can bend (but Nickodemus cannot) to apply "behold! A noose of steel!"

Can a wizard apply a might-11 spell to lift a nearby truck or rip a piece of concrete then land it on the Loup-garou/Nicodemus? If they can't lift it, they're "immobilized".

[Morgan]

All of those sound like pretty good maneuvers to try on something with Physical Immunity, essentially you'd be setting up a Block that keeps them from acting against you until they broke through it, retreated, or gave. The real trick is getting a Loup Garou or Nicodemus to sit still and not do anything to you as you try to hold them down.

[Belial666]

Well, the wizard wouldn't need to do any preparation before trying these with a spell. And there's a melee character with +13 might for lifting/bending, +7 for grappling. She could nail the Loup-garou no problem, and maybe Nikodemus.
(incidentally, the Loup-garou has no might skill despite MacFinn being a big, strong man. Why?)

[tymire]

How else would you define what happened when Harry bound the senses Loup-garou other than tagging it with an aspect like this?

In regards to no might?  Characters stated out rarely if ever match what people think they should have.  Even if it doesn't have the might skill, don't see why it wouldn't just tag it's high concept for it.  Considering it ripped through a reinforced concrete (jail) wall it has to have something 

[Morgan]

A loup-garou as written up in the book is just the baseline, and the bonuses from Superhuman Strength usually takes care of any sort of Might roll you would want to make. But if you want MacFinn's Loup-Garou form to have a Might skill feel free to give him one, after all his human form isn't actually statted up in the book.

Also I wasn't saying that any of the feats to bind Nicodemus or a Loup-Garou form weren't possible for the characters to try, I was more curious about Nicodemus not shredding them to ribbons with his shadow as they attempt to do it.

[Deadmanwalking]

OK, physical immunity protects you from stress. Does it also protect from maneuers?

Why would it? It applies very explicitly only to Stress.

There's even the possibility of treating successful Attacks as maneuvers as well, as discussed (in a slightly different context) on YS p. 200.

However, your examples all sound much more like (and are much better used as) Blocks.

[Belial666]

Well, what strength and what damage would you give Nicodemus' shadow? It can hold a human of a bit average strength but would it be able to hold a giant or similarly strong opponent?


Also, blocks have the problem that they a) can't prevent someone from defending himself and b) stop working when you stop applying them. If you bury someone up to the neck in solid concrete or stone or pin them under a ten-ton object they cannot lift or chain them up/crucify them or strangle them with a twisted rebar they aren't strong enough to remove... those effects don't stop when you stop applying force and don't fade on their own - and I doubt someone thus immobilized could roll dodge or weapons to block.

[Morgan]

Well in the book it says that he is able to manipulate shadow with a skill of Great or Superb which I take to mean he can use it just like Evocation and Thaumaturgy. So by that he can make it as powerful as a normal spell caster at that level, if he dumps the stress into it and makes his control roll there is a pretty high upper limit to his casting (Legendary +1). But that is also Billy's best guess at Nicodemus's stats, so I'd use that as a jumping off point rather then the ending. He is pretty much a plot level problem, you might be able to hold him still for a little while but you really need to out think him rather then out fight him.

Also I think you're thinking about him going physical strength against physical strength against a bruiser and to me that's not really his shtick. What is to keep him from cutting those chains, tearing his arms free of the spikes, or blasting a hole straight through that concrete slab or truck with a bolt of living shadow? Also if the super strong opponent grabs him I hope the opponent is super tough as well cause I'd either cut through his arms or maybe turn myself into a spiky pincushion as an attack against his grapple, and that's just for starters.

And if you don't mind me asking what Refresh level are your characters that they have a +13 bonus to anything? Though I suppose with mythic strength it's not that hard but that's -6 refresh right there.

As for a block having to be sustained, eventually you can say that the grappled, trussed up character simply can't escape any more and yields the conflict, especially after a big dog pile of maneuvers, blocks, and grapples by multiple opponents.

[Belial666]

His Shadow is like Evocation/Thaumaturgy? Excellent! That's because such an ability gets the block as a reduction to its control roll. So, if Nicodemus is under an Epic (+7) block, and he rolls a control of +7, his control result for the Shadow - if it works like Evocation - is reduced to 0, meaning he can't use it at all. If he rolls Legendary, he could "cast" a 1-shift effect.


As for what character could do the physical blocks/maneuers with those guys with Physical Immunity? I was thinking a troll/ogre/giant changeling or a really physically strong scion like a greek Demigod or a Nephilim. They'd be submerged;
Supernatural Strength -4, Supernatural Toughness with a catch -1, maybe hulking size with human form or the mighty thews stunt -1, wrestler -1 and two more left refresh for something else. +5 might and +5 weapons or Fists, for a bruiser.

So, for close-up bruising we have;
+5 melee attack, maybe +6 with a stunt or True Strike, at Wp 7 if they use normal weapons or even Wp 9 if they pick up a desk/tree trunk/car.
+13 for lifting things - enough to lift several tons with ease.
+8 for grappling.

So they'd be able to overpower Nicodemus or the Loup-Garou for a few exchanges. In a straight-up fight Nick and the Loup-Garou are immune to damage but if the wrestling begins, they could lose.

[Morgan]

Well the book says that it is Spellcasting or something like it. Which either lets you do it exactly as you've said, or surprise the hell out of your player when his "spellcasting" breaks the rules and the awesome super strong Wizard immobilizer hold you've worked up.

And I hope such a grappling monster character build never goes up against a social combat monster, say something able to Dominate or Incite Emotions. But what are the chances of that happening right?

So they'd be able to overpower Nicodemus or the Loup-Garou for a few exchanges. In a straight-up fight Nick and the Loup-Garou are immune to damage but if the wrestling begins, they could lose.

Definitely, that's the point of blocks and grapples. It give you a chance to exchange witty dialogue and barbed insults. As for the Loup-Garou look at Marcone's plan to deal with MacFinn it was making a trap out of a bunch of Aspects so he could hold the Loup-Garou in a night long Block/Grapple till he became human and vulnerable. Works great for stopping rampaging monsters, but for intelligent bad guys it's asking for Nicodemus to fight you straight up, and that's asking a lot.