Possible Trapping for Echoes of the Beast?

[luminos]

Actually, it's merely one of two powers he's got that allow him to switch forms - the other one being Human Form itself.  You can (and I have) statted up were-creatures that just don't have Beast Change, because they didn't need the skill swap.  Which is why I listed it as questionable rather than obviously unacceptable.
(Kitsune in particular would seem a good example of the sort of shifter that can get by without Beast Change - what they can do is what they can do, and they're not going to have a lower scholarship or something just because they happen to look like a fox right now.  Of course, that is going by my mental image of a kitsune, which I already know doesn't match yours; there's nothing actually wrong with putting Beast Change on one.)

While I can understand a shapeshifter not needing a skill swap, and I am sympathetic to the logic of allowing a change without the Beast Form power, you should note that changing into a beast is not a trapping of the Human Form power, and though that power does allude to the fact that the user is a shapeshifter, it doesn't actually grant that ability.  Beast Change, on the other hand, has a specific trapping for taking on the form of an animal.  So while there are edge cases where shapeshifters won't need to take Beast Change, allowing them to do so is a house rule.

[Ophidimancer]

Actually... I might have found a way for you to keep Echoes, and the Human Form bonus, and pick up Claws for the fox form.

Item of Power (Hoshi no tama) +1
-Glamours -2

Human Form +1
-Inhuman Speed -2
-Claws -1

Then leave the rest of your powers and stunts as they are.

Nah, I think I'd prefer to keep it mostly the same.  I wasn't too married to the idea of having Echoes anyway.

[wyvern]

Luminos: Human form is explicitly the power of "I've got this powered form that's clearly not human, and I can shift between that and a human form - but lose access to some of my powers when doing so."  Look at it from the other way around - no, human form doesn't give you the ability to turn into a beast.  That's not what it's for.  It's for allowing a beast to turn into a human.  As such, it is explicitly a shapeshifting power; it *grants* the ability to change your form from its default full-powered state, to a lower powered human state.

[luminos]

Not by the way I read it.  It does not grant anything, it simply restricts what you already have.  Thats why its worth +refresh rather than the other way around.  Its certainly should not be interpreted to mean that you can stick you beast change bonus under it, because that is clearly not the way it was designed.

[wyvern]

Then combine Human Form with Human Guise; same total refresh cost, explicitly grants a human appearance to something that's very solidly not human.  Still no need to get Beast Change involved.

I do, however, agree that you shouldn't be able to stick a Beast Change under it, (except possibly under strange circumstances like that three-form thing I mentioned in my original post.)

[JosephKell]

Not by the way I read it.  It does not grant anything, it simply restricts what you already have.  Thats why its worth +refresh rather than the other way around.  Its certainly should not be interpreted to mean that you can stick you beast change bonus under it, because that is clearly not the way it was designed.

(+1).  Nor the way the power is written.

Human Form explicitly talks about either not having super juice when NOT in your awesome form or not having super juice when it isn't your time of the month (or whatever period you follow).  It doesn't talk about giving you an awesome form.

But Beast Change is a crazy good power (easily worth losing pure mortal's +2 AND the -1 cost).  Reshuffle your skills?  This means your human form can do human things (like knowing stuff, talking, etc.) while your beast form (awesome form) can be all about the things that make party members glare (starting fights).

Think about it, the skills you swap are like having stackable +1's (or more) on those skills for the time when you need it.  So there is less of an opportunity cost of having certain skills (there are like 4 or 5 skills related to social interaction?) at higher ratings.

Now I take the skill shuffle to mean you must have at least 1 point in those skills and the same shape to your pyramid, but perhaps I am taking too strict a view.  It technically just says:
1.  Same number of skill points and same character creation rules (i.e. legit skill "pyramid" and skill caps).
2.  No knowledge or social skills can go up in your beast form.
So maybe, you can have Mediocre Fists normally, but when you go fox or wolf or whatever you might have Great Fists!  But I doubt that, it does look like you are supposed to keep the same skills (it is called a "shuffle," right?).

Human Guise doesn't give an alternate form.  It just says that your normal face is X, but when you are cool and don't use much mojo, you have an natural camouflage cover.

Beast Form is just an incredible power.  I see few shapeshifters that don't benefit from either Beast Form or True Shapeshifting (although I think this one is a bit overvalued, but maybe it is worth -4 because the skill shuffle can bring up mediocre skills, in which case all of the high skills for a True Shapeshifter should be knowledge/social skills).

A good trapping for a Fox shifter would be a bonus on athletics checks to get through wall borders (squeezing through cracks, jumping over, digging under, but not destroying them).

[wyvern]

Ok, having re-read the power again, I can see where you're coming from, Luminos.  So, yeah, maybe you do need to replace Beast Change with Human Guise rather than just dropping it entirely.

JosephKell: Yes, Beast Change is a strong power; I won't argue that.  But not everybody will have a combat oriented alternate form; consider, for example, a werefox.  You don't need to vastly increase your fists skill - and it's not even really appropriate to do so.  Stealth benefits from Diminutive Size; no need to tinker with that.  Same for Athletics.  And so on.  If you're trying to build a character, rather than optimize your character's game-mechanical benefits, there are plenty of ways to make a perfectly valid shapeshifter without it.  Heck, it even mentions (OW115) that, over time, a shapeshifter's skills could equalize between alternate forms.

On Human Guise: It says that, when you're not using powers that would render you clearly inhuman, you look like a human.  I don't see anything in there implying that it's a purely illusory change the way a Glamour would be.  I don't see anything in there saying that it can only be applied to things that are almost human already.  What it does say is that a single alternative appearance, that is essentially a cosmetic change, is worth a -0 power.  Interesting.  Compare that to Beast Change - if you drop the skill shuffle, what are you left with?  A single alternative appearance - that's explicitly just a cosmetic change in form.  Which we just saw was a -0 power.  I don't see any problem here.

I'm probably going to drop this argument after this post, though; it sounds like we have sufficiently different ways of reading the rules that I doubt it's going to go anywhere useful.  You can have your ruling, and think mine is a houserule, and I'll take my ruling and think yours is a houserule.  Either way, we'll both have to double-check relevant character concepts with whatever GM and gaming group we might end up playing with.