Discipline and conviction

[ironchicken]

Harry has a higher conviction than discipline, when he casts there may be fall out.

Colour wise in the books wizards with higher discipline have neater spells (the searing beam that Harry could never achieve).

Mechanically in game what is the advantage of high discipline? I can't find anything other than a lesser chance of fallout and you can always limit power to avoid that anyway. Have i missed something?

[luminos]

The control roll for attack spells, which is based on discipline, is also a to hit roll.  So higher discipline means more damaging spells.

[Belial666]

It also means more chances to hit.

On average, if you want pure damage it is better to go with discipline. On the other hand, conviction is useful for bigger effects like more zones affected, a stronger shield, stronger maneuvers and blocks and so on. Also, it is useful for being able to cast more spells total as it increases your mental stress track and may give you extra mental consequences.

[Lanodantheon]

More specifically, Higher conviction allows for a lower minimum Damage Stress Value(Or whatever the term) and room for Modifications.

Discipline increases your likelyhood of hitting.

[JosephKell]

More specifically, Higher conviction allows for a lower minimum Damage Stress Value(Or whatever the term) and room for Modifications.

Discipline increases your likelyhood of hitting.

If Lanodantheon means "More conviction means more shifts of power with still the minimum of 1 stress" then that is precisely the reason.

Also, don't forget that Discipline can be augmented by Fate Points as needed, your conviction can not be.

Attacks are the only time shifts of effect convert to damage.  Blocks, Maneuvers, Counterspells, and Extra Duration are all shifts of power limited.

The mechanical advantage of having more discipline than conviction is fewer chances of fallout/backlash.  If your Discipline is equal to your Conviction, you have a 61.7% chance of no backlash/fallout (without using a fate point).  Discipline = Conviction + 1, you now have a 81.5% chance of no backlash/fallout.  Discipline = Conviction + 2, it is 93.8%.

[ironchicken]

That's interesting and not how i read it. I will check tonight.

I did not think successes added to damage with magic. I thought if you cast a weapon:4 fireball and made the rolled +3 over you still only did 4 damage and not 7. I thought this was a limitation of evocation over normal weapons. This is probably due to most other FUDGE/FATE systems doing it that way.

[Deadmanwalking]

Nope, attack adds to damage normally. See the example on p. 251, just for one, well, example of this.

[CMEast]

I think it's a matter of taste. I've read a few posts that suggest it's best to have high Conviction because you can tag or invoke aspects to get the required control roll that you need and the more power, the more damage, the quicker the conflict is over.

I personally prefer Discipline because as the conflict progresses it makes sense to increase the power of your spells, you can't do the same with Discipline. For instance I have a Discipline 4, Conviction 3 wizard.
First spell - 3 shifts. One mental stress.
Second spell - 4 shifts. It costs two mental stress, but because I've already filled the first slot it rolls up to the second anyway so why not.
Third spell - 5 shifts. Again I'm just filling the next box up so it's cost me the same stress as for three 3 shift spells and my first spell is normally a manoeuvre (if appropriate) so it's a safe bet).

Of course, I've got a +2/+2 focus item for offensive power and control in the water element, so most of my spells start at 5 shifts and work up.

[DFJunkie]

Numerically a high Discipline is probably better.  The fact that it's your targeting ability is absolutely key.  Also, since those 1 stress spells roll up a wizard will start taking consequences after casting his fifth spell one way or another.  It doesn't matter if you cast a five 1 stress spells, or a 5 stress, 4 stress, 3 stress, 2 stress, and 1 stress spell. 

That being said, since the relation between Discipline and Conviction says something about your character's personality I'd just go with what feels right, and let the numbers work themselves out. 

[Deadmanwalking]

Numerically a high Discipline is probably better.  The fact that it's your targeting ability is absolutely key.  Also, since those 1 stress spells roll up a wizard will start taking consequences after casting his fifth spell one way or another.  It doesn't matter if you cast a five 1 stress spells, or a 5 stress, 4 stress, 3 stress, 2 stress, and 1 stress spell. 

Firstly, this is only true on Attack Evocations. With Maneuvers, Blocks, Counterspells, and, well, just about everything else, it's best to have the two equal for casting (or damn close to it), since the Control roll being in excess of the Power used is basically useless (or at least much less useful).

Secondly, the extra Stress and Consequence from high Conviction is also an important balancing factor between the two skills.

[DFJunkie]

Firstly, this is only true on Attack Evocations. With Maneuvers, Blocks, Counterspells, and, well, just about everything else, it's best to have the two equal for casting (or damn close to it), since the Control roll being in excess of the Power used is basically useless (or at least much less useful).

That isn't really true.  Yes, scene maneuvers and blocks have a set difficulty, in the first case set by the GM and in the second by the power of the block, but maneuvers targeting another character are resisted by one of that character's skills and counterspells are resisted by the opposing spellcaster's discipline.  It's true, you don't counterspell or maneuver super hard if you crush the oposition's roll (though if the GM is generous with the Overflow rule on p. 214 you might get to do something else), but unless you beat them nothing happens. 

Also, control in excess of power may be useless, but Discipline in excess of Conviction is aboslutely useful once you're on your second spell.