Real heavy weapons/armor?

[tymire]

Hehe this reminds me of one of the first posts I read.  The characters in this game typically fall under the rock, paper, or scissors categories.  And this is definitely a Rock, so just need to watch out for paper   .  Not too sure if 7-8 classifies as hulking, but without glamour, just living could be problematic. 

Assuming the character was approved, the only thing I would be extremely careful of is how powerful the rest of the group is.  Making a tank this specialized could very well have him/her increase the adversaries power to compensate, and if the rest of the group cannot handle it… well...  it makes for a short session.

My first thoughts on the gun where along the lines of awsome, talk about putting holes in things nm getting all the resisting arrest, cop killing, charges, ect.  My second thoughts on the gun was WOW what a piece of wonderfully bulky heavy junk that the first person with magic will hex.  Also remember bulk, center of mass, and leverage plays a huge part in things, it's cool to ignore that in supers games, but if going with core DV it's definately not (which helps out the lowly mortals quite a bit).

[ballplayer72]

She's actually weaker than the rules tould technically make her. Drop the hammer (but not True Strike), the armor, the supernatural toughness, the monstrous might needed to wield them and the immunity to magic and replace them with a longsword, advanced tactical suit and Physical Immunity with Catch Holy Stuff (researchable)
She is now weapon 7 instead of weapon 9 but she is immune to all damage unless it's holy stuff... and she still has armor 3 against holy stuff and an epic defense.


As for the GAU, a sustained burst would probably count as more than one exchange. Besides, weak exterior walls only have a stress track of 8. With a weapon 7 and a good roll to hit, you could deal 9 stress and break the wall. On the other hand, an ogre has a stress track of 10 and armor 2. You'd need five good hits with weapon 7 to take them out. That's why it says ogres are bulletproof.
(But a good hit at legendary attack with weapon 7 could take out the Ogre in one blow and Valera has Legendary and either weapon 7 or weapon 9, depending on if she wields her big hammer or a longsword)

Gotta remember the GAU shoots about 30 bullets in a single second.   Thats 30 weapon 7s hitting at once.  If thats not legendary damage then I don't know what is 

Just because you could add power doesn't mean she aint still overpowered.  At least for a normal game.  If youre going for taking on things like lea and eldest all the time then yeah i could see that making some sense.   Its just a balance issue, because she's practically invincible.
Heres an idea:  Post the break down of some of the common enemies she'd be facing and compare them.   If she can squash them like the faceless hordes in dynasty warriors games then she's probably a bit overpowered.

[ballplayer72]

That's Ringo, not Weber.

And I still want to know what the PCs are like, that you are pointing GAU-8s at.

BTW, just how strong is Tiny? Firing the gun is 10,000 lbs of load. For me, I probably wouldn't include the GAU-8 in my game. If I were it would do a damage of [[ plot ]] and an effect of [[ plot ]] on the shooter. In my book you need something bigger than Tiny to deal with the recoil, reasonably, of a GAU-8.

However, had you brought that up for me as a player, before giving me a chance to give it a physics smell test I would have declared "DIVE FOR COVER!"

Ah youre right! its been awhile since i read it and i just finished webers massive sci fi "safehold" series (think thats the name of the series. starts with "off armageddon reef")


yeah i'd let him use it.  once.     it would epically destroy whatever he shot but either break his arm or send him flying or something like that, and the landing would break the cannon.  but when i dm i'm kind of a dick so maybe thats just me

[YuriPup]

Bah! Safehold isn't anywhere near massive.

Try the Weber's Honorverse stuff if you want massive. On Basilisk Station is the first. Mission of Honor is 12. (Mission of Honor ends with a great scene.) The there are 4 side plot novels too. (The Torch line and the Shadows line...) And he as a new one apparently, Out Of Darkness, in a new 'verse. No clue if it is stand alone or not.

[ballplayer72]

Bah! Safehold isn't anywhere near massive.

Try the Weber's Honorverse stuff if you want massive. On Basilisk Station is the first. Mission of Honor is 12. (Mission of Honor ends with a great scene.) The there are 4 side plot novels too. (The Torch line and the Shadows line...) And he as a new one apparently, Out Of Darkness, in a new 'verse. No clue if it is stand alone or not.

Safehold has 4 books.  And they haven't even gotten OFF safehold yet. They still have to rebuild a technic civilization and refind the gbaba so they can kill them all to death.     Several more just to get off safehold.  Several after that to take the gbaba.  Big series to me 

[Belial666]

@ballplayer72
I am counting the thirty bullets as weapon 7, not a single bullet; a single bullet wouldn't break down a wall. Sort of like an AK-47 is weapon 3 for a burst, not a single bullet.

@YuriPup
Assume a PC with supernatural toughness and an athletics as good as the equivalent attacker's skill plus endurance +3. That PC could be "Feet in the Water" and still have refresh left. The following are true;
1) The PC has a stress track of 8 boxes plus armor 2.
3) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 7 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating plus ignoring 2 armor from AP rounds.
4) The GAU-wielding attacker needs to score 3 average hits for a takeout or get really lucky.
Now let's do the same math for a normal tank;
1) The tank has mythic toughness, hulking size and thus stress track 12 and armor 3. (it also has physical immunity to weapons 3 or less but that's irrelevant)
2) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 11 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating, -1 from the tank's armor which is reduced due to AP rounds, +4 from the attacker's skill since the tank has no athletics skill to dodge plus a +1 due to hulking size being easier to hit.
3) The tank is going down in 3 average hits or one really lucky hit.

So, as you can see, a "Feet in the Water" tank is just as hard to kill with a GAU-8 as a normal, mechanical tank. Yes, a trained gunner is going to have stunts to improve his skill with weapons and thus kill both tanks in one burst each but we are talking Feet in the Water here. A submerged tank is significantly tougher (the submerged version of Valera could survive over twelve average attack rolls with her defenses)
And the Submerged Valera is neither strong enough nor bulky enough to use the GAU-8 yet. Her 20-refresh version? Certainly.

@tymire
The GAU-8 is not an automatic weapon, it is not chain-fed or clip-fed (it takes individual bullets) and was made with anti-jamming in mind. Once you remove the hydraulic/electric rotors and replace them with a hand-moved rotor that a superhumanly strong character could move, you've kicked the tech back to 1860. Yes, THAT far back. Only a very powerful wizard could jam it and only if he was intentionally trying to hex. And yes, the 20-refresh version of Valera took that into account.

[ballplayer72]

@ballplayer72
I am counting the thirty bullets as weapon 7, not a single bullet; a single bullet wouldn't break down a wall. Sort of like an AK-47 is weapon 3 for a burst, not a single bullet.

@YuriPup
Assume a PC with supernatural toughness and an athletics as good as the equivalent attacker's skill plus endurance +3. That PC could be "Feet in the Water" and still have refresh left. The following are true;
1) The PC has a stress track of 8 boxes plus armor 2.
3) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 7 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating plus ignoring 2 armor from AP rounds.
4) The GAU-wielding attacker needs to score 3 average hits for a takeout or get really lucky.
Now let's do the same math for a normal tank;
1) The tank has mythic toughness, hulking size and thus stress track 12 and armor 3. (it also has physical immunity to weapons 3 or less but that's irrelevant)
2) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 11 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating, -1 from the tank's armor which is reduced due to AP rounds, +4 from the attacker's skill since the tank has no athletics skill to dodge plus a +1 due to hulking size being easier to hit.
3) The tank is going down in 3 average hits or one really lucky hit.

So, as you can see, a "Feet in the Water" tank is just as hard to kill with a GAU-8 as a normal, mechanical tank. Yes, a trained gunner is going to have stunts to improve his skill with weapons and thus kill both tanks in one burst each but we are talking Feet in the Water here. A submerged tank is significantly tougher (the submerged version of Valera could survive over twelve average attack rolls with her defenses)
And the Submerged Valera is neither strong enough nor bulky enough to use the GAU-8 yet. Her 20-refresh version? Certainly.

@tymire
The GAU-8 is not an automatic weapon, it is not chain-fed or clip-fed (it takes individual bullets) and was made with anti-jamming in mind. Once you remove the hydraulic/electric rotors and replace them with a hand-moved rotor that a superhumanly strong character could move, you've kicked the tech back to 1860. Yes, THAT far back. Only a very powerful wizard could jam it and only if he was intentionally trying to hex. And yes, the 20-refresh version of Valera took that into account.

well a single bullet from a gau will punch through several inches of tank armor.  And straight explode a man sized target. Or a bull sized target. Like Pink Mist nothing left but homeboys nikes.
Also your idea of a hand crank is cool.  but the action is electric iirc.  so you'd have to rig that up too.    You'd be FARR better off getting an old civil war era rotary cannon and maybe using your resources or crafting to MAKE it a 30mm cannon (ie make new barrels that sort of thing).


though if you really wanted an old, simple gun that shoots fast and has a big fn round pick the ma duece M2 .50 cal machine gun.  you know, the kind that they perch on humvees and tanks?      tie two of those MFs together with chains and bailing wire.    rig a piece that will depress both triggers together.  Step 3?   Walk around blowin shit away like a space marine      For the Golden Throne!

[Belial666]

Most normal humans have a stress track of 2. Most normal bulls have a stress track of 5 or 6. Neither have armor. Hence even a glancing (mediocre) hit from a 30 mm bullet could do serious damage to the bull and kill the human. A dead-center hit like you're describing does 5 stress from weapon rating and +4 for a great hit and would kill both human and bull.
Do note that a sniper rifle is weapon 3, a grenade is weapon 4 and being hit by a car is weapon 5.


As for being overpowered, ever seen a submerged wizard pancake an entire building with a Weapon 9, attack 10+ blast that spreads over three entire zones? We are talking dozens of vampires and minions burned to a crisp in one blow here. Because how many times has Harry done so by now? I'm kinda losing track. Yeah, a submerged guy isn't going to do that more than once or twice in a session but once or twice is usually enough.

[tymire]

Putting a hand crank on it your closer to 3-6 rounds a second than 30, not that it would make much of a difference, as mentioned.  Which is probably good. Trying to carry that much ammo could be a bit of a problem just bulk wise (could.. hehe..).  Might also consider that you might be immune to magic, but that doesn't mean the bullets are  .  Lol, that would make a satern missile battery look like a snake.

Not too sure about the immune to all damage either.  Personally if I was running it would make that into the small and possibly vechicle scale weapons.  Sorry the "Nuke the entire site from orbit—it's the only way to be sure" just carries too much wieght.  That would also corrispond to you trying to carry 200-300 of those shells somehow in a backpack, sorry if they all went boom at the same time, yea good luck with that.
 
Love the idea of another Seras Victoria a.k.a. Police Girl, but even she just uses a single shot umm something...

And Ballplayer72, need a bit more before thinking your a SM.  Have to remember bolt rounds penetrate pretty much anything and than go BOOM    Also great idea of crafting one yourself.  Not only that you don't have to worry about pesky laws, blackmail, records, or anything else when aquiring it.

[ballplayer72]

Most normal humans have a stress track of 2. Most normal bulls have a stress track of 5 or 6. Neither have armor. Hence even a glancing (mediocre) hit from a 30 mm bullet could do serious damage to the bull and kill the human. A dead-center hit like you're describing does 5 stress from weapon rating and +4 for a great hit and would kill both human and bull.
Do note that a sniper rifle is weapon 3, a grenade is weapon 4 and being hit by a car is weapon 5.


As for being overpowered, ever seen a submerged wizard pancake an entire building with a Weapon 9, attack 10+ blast that spreads over three entire zones? We are talking dozens of vampires and minions burned to a crisp in one blow here. Because how many times has Harry done so by now? I'm kinda losing track. Yeah, a submerged guy isn't going to do that more than once or twice in a session but once or twice is usually enough.

Harry has in fact NEVER ONCE unilaterally pancaked a building.   He has lit them on fire, several times.    This usually leads to massive structural damage that eventually causes the building to collapse under its own weight.   Especially when he sheers through support beams with fire lances.  But he's never just rolled up and smashed the shit out of the place.    That wizard you talk about is also a glass cannon.  He's not going to be able to consequence himself out by doing that level of mojo and still be able to defend himself.  Whereas both your characters are effectively invincible AND deal MASSIVE amounts of offense.  And mostly don't miss.    thats just overpowered imo if youre trying to have a balanced game.  If youre NOT trying to have a balanced game then knock yourself out.  Those can definitely be fun (whole squad of brokenly powerful PCs is always fun.   It means you can do your best to off them and they generally won't complain about it )

[YuriPup]

If you're handcranking--which is /way coo/--why bother with 7 barrels?

Yee ogre isn't going to get anywhere near ROF of 3900 RPM--and maybe not even 300 RPM--and cooling becomes much less of an issue.

Just looking at steel pipe that is 2" across with a 3/4" wall (which looks to be way bigger than the GAU 8's barrels) we get a weight of only about 10 lbs/foot. Now the recoil would be a killer, as you aren't absorbing it into 2 tons of gun, but its way, way more portable. Maybe 300 lbs for the package and 300 lbs for the ammo (as the shells seem to be about 1.5 lbs each).

And you might have a nice little bonus of a player rolling a gun skill check and figuring out "OMG that is an Avenger barrel...torn out of an A-10").

And should your target manage to soak the roll from the gun and they aren't using magic to disperse the energy, they are going over on their asses. 1 shot should be about enough to move a 200 LB man 1 yard.

[tymire]

Though really the SM comment is actually quite valid.   Have been thinking about Deathwatch the last week or so, how you could play the game where it didn't turn into a slug fest every session.  Maybe I am just not inventive enough but I couldn't really come up with anything.  As SMs are just too obvious for everyday life.  It's understandable that most of them on are on a ship travelling to their next fight, or on sanctified monk worlds and separated from the rest of the populous.  The closest I came was having an Inquisitor travel around with them, but just them being present (in armor or not) eliminates any chance of subtlety.

Making a character like this pretty much is the same.  By weighing 2-4 tons (with armor) you will not be able go anywhere that isn't on solid ground.  No vehicles will be able to take that weight so hope you like walking.  Rain/sand/mud/water are going to be your worse enemies as anything that isn't properly supported will just crush under your weight.  Trying to get up would almost be as bad as picking yourself out of powder.  If you haven’t done that while skiing let me tell you it's not the easiest thing in the world.  Have never pulled any stomach muscles until tried doing that, and have to say it's a bit of an experience that involves lots of cussing, lol.

In fact going to the local quick trip would probably be more of a challenge than most combats.  And tracking you finding out where you live ect would only take a google search.  In combat most folks once they realize what you are will just simply out maneuver you, which with a little brains would be a simple prospect.

On the flip side the RP fun of a character when not in combat with that many challenges could be quite entertaining.  
 

[Belial666]

@tymire;
Nicodemus has physical immunity. He ignores nukes-it even says so on his sheet. Ditto for ghosts with Physical immunity to anything they are ignoring. The Loup-Garou also has physical immunity. Harry blasted it through a whole freaking police station, thrusting it through several walls only by the knockback of his spell, and halfway through another building to boot. It wasn't even wounded-and that blast was the equivalent of what, a tankbuster missile? More?
Physical immunity is just that; you cannot be harmed except for a specific thing that is your weakness, major artifact weapons and gods. Anything else could only knock you around, perhaps cause some pain but no lasting wounds at all.

@ballplayer72;
Harry's Submerged version does Weapon 8 blasts at attack +7 if he makes his spells lethal-paying the minimum mental stress. Against something that can't dodge, that's 15 stress on an average roll. You need only 12 stress to blast a vault door or really fortified walls.
Now, paying his 4th mental stress track and one mild mental consequence plus his 3rd mental stress track and one mild physical consequence, he could deal 14 stress on three entire zones. Instant pancake.
Yeah, a submerged wizard could only do it once every other scene (he or she needs the intervening scene to recover from the milds) but they can still obliterate lots and lots of people. THAT is why Lawbreakers exist; so that wizards have to be careful not to kill humans with magic. Otherwise, wizards would simply nova every singe encounter.

[ballplayer72]

@tymire;
Nicodemus has physical immunity. He ignores nukes-it even says so on his sheet. Ditto for ghosts with Physical immunity to anything they are ignoring. The Loup-Garou also has physical immunity. Harry blasted it through a whole freaking police station, thrusting it through several walls only by the knockback of his spell, and halfway through another building to boot. It wasn't even wounded-and that blast was the equivalent of what, a tankbuster missile? More?
Physical immunity is just that; you cannot be harmed except for a specific thing that is your weakness, major artifact weapons and gods. Anything else could only knock you around, perhaps cause some pain but no lasting wounds at all.

@ballplayer72;
Harry's Submerged version does Weapon 8 blasts at attack +7 if he makes his spells lethal-paying the minimum mental stress. Against something that can't dodge, that's 15 stress on an average roll. You need only 12 stress to blast a vault door or really fortified walls.
Now, paying his 4th mental stress track and one mild mental consequence plus his 3rd mental stress track and one mild physical consequence, he could deal 14 stress on three entire zones. Instant pancake.
Yeah, a submerged wizard could only do it once every other scene (he or she needs the intervening scene to recover from the milds) but they can still obliterate lots and lots of people. THAT is why Lawbreakers exist; so that wizards have to be careful not to kill humans with magic. Otherwise, wizards would simply nova every singe encounter.

right but don't you have to add up the number of mortals that were in the building you just pancaked along with the Rampires?     Doesn't each lawbreaker count against you until eventually you stack up with negative refresh?    Or is it friday and 4:30 pm and my brain has shut off?

[Belial666]

Well, you can only go up to -2 for Lawbreaker: First. And if you're a submerged wizard who already has that Lawbreaker maxed, it just gives you a +2 to any spells intended to kill. So, Conviction 5, focus +2, specialization +1 gives 8 minimum power, Discipline 5, focus +2, Lawbreaker +2 gives 9 control.

So our Lawbreaking Submerged wizard is doing 8-shift killing spells at +9 attack, dealing 14 shifts of damage on someone with good defense, 17 shifts of damage on something that can't dodge or has mediocre dodge. That's cleaving-a-tank-in-two or ripping-off-the-vault-door kinda blast if focused on a single target. Or it can be pancake-the-building kinda blast if focused on two-three zones.

And the scary thing? This is a 1-stress spell for the wizard who can have it as a Rote. He can do it 4 times per combat without consequences.