Real heavy weapons/armor?

[YuriPup]

Frankly, I think once you can keep the business end of a 50 pound weapon moving, you don't really need more. There is no such thing as parrying that kind of speed and weight and really 1500 LB hammers and 30mm auto-cannon are all just matters of the type of bloodstain you leave behind after getting hit.

But I don't think that a 30MM auto-cannon is going to be an effective weapon for anyone--the fey will either be allergic or not understand it (or both) and I think the technical competence to jury-rig a 30MM AC is going to rare. (Though having the weapon degrade as the bad guy use it is an interesting idea.)

That said, just what freaking power level are you at that you think you need to shoot GAU-8 at your PCs?

[Barrington]

If you keep the laws of physics intact in your game, nothing Tiny-sized, no matter how strong, could control a GAU-8 in sustained bursts. Like any full-auto, the recoil would build exponentially as you kept firing, and it would spin the wielder around. Now, however, a small-arms caliber rotary weapon is totally within the realm of possibility. Give your troll or whatever an M134 Minigun with, perhaps, longer barrels and some kind of custom action housing for him to hold it, and you've got a formidable weapon. Or, if you simply must have a BFG, give him an M2 Browning .50 BMG. It'd still be hard to control, but it would be more within the realm of possibility for something with Hulking Size. And let's face it, both the .50 BMG and the 30mm are anti-aircraft rounds. There's no functional difference between the two. Anything you shot with them would be dead in one round.

[Belial666]

An A-10 weighs about 11 tons and it is airborne. It can fire a GAU-8/A just fine.
A troll with superb might is 15 feet tall, weighs 4 tons and can wear 3 tons of armor plus use the 2-ton GAU-8/A without penalty. It can brace on the ground, something the A-10 cannot do.

I don't see the troll having a recoil problem. It's only 20% lighter but can brace.


As for the damage dealt by a 30mm round, a grenade is weapon 4. Being hit by a speeding car is weapon 5. Being hit by Harry's fuego that can burn through exterior walls and carve coffin-sized dents in the pavement is weapon 8. Even if you put the GAU-8/A as damaging as Harry's fuego, lots of heavy-hitters are going to need several bursts from it to go down. (the aforementioned troll would need two when unarmored. Magog would need eight.)

[Barrington]

While it may be true that Harry's fireballs carry the force of an artillery shell when he's good and pissed off, you have to factor in the rate of fire of the GAU-8. This thing fires thirty or forty rounds per SECOND, and each of it's individual bullets hits at Weapon:8. Nothing we've seen in the books so far could take a sustained burst from that except maybe the Faerie queens and Ferrovax.

[ballplayer72]

If you keep the laws of physics intact in your game, nothing Tiny-sized, no matter how strong, could control a GAU-8 in sustained bursts. Like any full-auto, the recoil would build exponentially as you kept firing, and it would spin the wielder around. Now, however, a small-arms caliber rotary weapon is totally within the realm of possibility. Give your troll or whatever an M134 Minigun with, perhaps, longer barrels and some kind of custom action housing for him to hold it, and you've got a formidable weapon. Or, if you simply must have a BFG, give him an M2 Browning .50 BMG. It'd still be hard to control, but it would be more within the realm of possibility for something with Hulking Size. And let's face it, both the .50 BMG and the 30mm are anti-aircraft rounds. There's no functional difference between the two. Anything you shot with them would be dead in one round.

heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.

[Todjaeger]

An A-10 weighs about 11 tons and it is airborne. It can fire a GAU-8/A just fine.
A troll with superb might is 15 feet tall, weighs 4 tons and can wear 3 tons of armor plus use the 2-ton GAU-8/A without penalty. It can brace on the ground, something the A-10 cannot do.

I don't see the troll having a recoil problem. It's only 20% lighter but can brace.


As for the damage dealt by a 30mm round, a grenade is weapon 4. Being hit by a speeding car is weapon 5. Being hit by Harry's fuego that can burn through exterior walls and carve coffin-sized dents in the pavement is weapon 8. Even if you put the GAU-8/A as damaging as Harry's fuego, lots of heavy-hitters are going to need several bursts from it to go down. (the aforementioned troll would need two when unarmored. Magog would need eight.)

Just a few things to note.  An A-10 has a MTOW (Maximum Takeoff Weight) of 51,000 lbs/25.5 tons, with a max weapons load of 16,000 lbs.  That leaves ~17.5 tons needed for the aircraft and fuel.  Incidentally, an A-10 only weighing 17.5 tons would not be able to fire the 'Avenger' as it would not be carrying ammunition either.  So for the purposes of 'realism' a troll wearing armor as mentioned would weigh ~1/3 the minimum weight of an A-10 firing the GAU-8. 

I will check with some of my defence contacts to see if I can find out what the force of recoil is when firing the gun, but it is sufficient to reduce the speed of an A-10 in flight.  Given that an A-10 has a pair of engines each rated at 9,000 lbs static thrust and would itself already be moving at great speed (at least compared to anything other than another aircraft) and would therefore have a significant amount of inertia to overcome in order to force the speed of an A-10 to decrease, even by just a couple of miles, it would suggest that the recoil coming from the GAU-8 'Avenger' would be more than a troll could handle.  Even if it were wearing 75% of its own weight in body armour.

Another thing to keep in mind, just where exactly could something like a troll stand while armored like that, with or without the GAU-8?  The ground pressure that would be exerted by having ~7 tons spread out over the surface area of the trolls feet would too much for the floors of most buildings (apart from the basement/foundation).  How many buildings are built in such a fashion to allow heavy SUV-weighted objects to put in without reinforcing?

[Bubba Amon Hotep]

heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.

without chopping barrels off rifles you can get that size gun in reality.  A troll might eve be able to shoot it one handed if you modified the grips and triggers to fit his oversize hands.

Here is a link . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns

[Belial666]

The recoil of the GAU-8/A in high setting is a bit over 45 kN. That would be half the armored troll's weight or so-about equal to a 100-pound human firing an AK-47 full-auto. High but not impossible.
As for what buildings can support 9-10 tons? Well, not many. But the troll is supposed to be a battlefield tank, not an urban setting investigator. Half-inch superalloy armor, antitank weaponry, what else could it be?


Incidentally, a submerged changeling or scion character with Might +5, Weapons +5, Athletics +4, Resources +4 and the following powers and stunts:
Hulking Size [-2], Supernatural Might [-4], Size Does Matter: +1 to attack and damage with weapons weighing over 200 pounds [-1], Supernatural Durability with Silver catch [-1] and Windfall [-1]
Could both buy and use the armor and the weapon.

So the question is, what's weapon rating for GAU-8 1-sec burst and what's armor rating for tank armor?
I'd say that since a burst from the GAU-8 is slightly less damaging than something that could tear down a small house so... weapon 7?
And light tank armor would be what, armor 5?

[DominicJ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#Recoil

The recoil of the cannon is actualy slightly more than a single engine, but no where near enough to slow the aircraft enough for it to crash, as long as its operating on both engines.
Still, you'd never got off the ground if you were firing.

[Belial666]

Which reminds me;

Valera Smith
High Concept: Cute Nephilim Trouble: Dolls for the Little Girl?
Other Aspects: Angelic Interlopers, Compensating for Something?, My Father is a Fallen Basterd, My Weapons-fu is Better than Yours, Legendary Temper
Refresh: Submerged, 1 fate point.  Physical OOOO(OOOO) Social OOO  Mental OOOO

Born to a temperamental Irish mother -father unknown- Valera Smith is firmly on the small side for a human... but compensates for it with a fiery personality, fiery-red looks and a freakish strength for her little frame. The first time her strength became apparent was when she saved her mother by throwing an armed burglar half across the house, through a barred window and several floors down... at the age of thirteen. Since then, her strength has steadily increased-though she barely grew an inch over five feet.
When she became eighteen years of age, a suit of arms and armor that fit her like an old glove magically appeared in her own room. Made of a dark, dull metal, the inch-thick armor weighed as much as a fair-sized car and the hammer that complemented it about a third as much. That was not a terribly great weight for Valera - in fact, she felt like one of those knights in shining armor donning them. And then came the second surprise; the armor could look like normal clothing as long as she didn't hold the hammer ready or did not test its sturdiness by hitting it.
Filled with glee, Valera got outside to test her new birthday present; she'd later come to know the full extent of the supernatural world and be visited -repeatedly- by her sinister father and his even more annoying (but in a good way) enemies...

SKILLS
+5 Might, Weapons
+4 Rapport, Discipline
+3 Conviction, Endurance
+2 Presence, Athletics, Fists
+1 Stealth, Contacts, Scholarship, Lore, Alertness

POWERS AND STUNTS
[-4] Supernatural Strength
[-4] Supernatural Toughness
[+3] Catch is Silver
[+0] Inhuman Constitution (like the wizard's, to reflect that she eventually heals and she does not normally age)
[-1] Monstrous Strength (as per mighty thews-but without the bulky muscles)
[-1] Size Does Matter: +1 weapon rolls with oversized weaponry
[-1] Waif-Fu: use weapons for defense rolls
[-1] Item of Power: The Arms of Talus
  * It is inch-thick armor from superheavy metal; weighs 2 tons and needs effective might 12 to wear comfortably but is armor rating 5
  * It is large-headed hammer from superheavy metal; weighs as much as a small car and needs effective might 13 to wield comfortably but is weapon rating 5
  * Indestructible
  * One-time Discount. +2 refresh
  * Human Guise
  * Physical Immunity: the wearer takes half effect from magic (includes magic that would be beneficial). -2 refresh
  * True Strike. -1 refresh

That's one really tough little girl. She is adult in human terms but since she's a Nephilim, she's nowhere near grown yet. She'll eventually have Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Hulking Size, Massive Blows (stunt for +2 damage for heavy melee weapons), Smash Armor (stunt to reduce armor by 2) and maybe full immunity to magic when she unlocks the full potential of her armor.
She'll be 20ish refresh by then but she'll be a freakishly powerful combatant. Weapon 13 attack, Legendary attack and defense, 12 boxes physical stress and heavy armor. And she'll be able to use a tank for a thrown weapon with her +22 Might, provided the ground beneath her feet does not cave in or something.

Here's the full-grown version:

Valera Smith
High Concept: Cute Nephilim Trouble: Painfully Obvious
Other Aspects: Angelic Interlopers, Compensating for Something?, My Father is a Fallen Basterd, My Weapons-fu is Better than Yours, Legendary Temper
Refresh: 20 refresh, 1 fate point.  Physical OOOOOO(OOOOOO) Social OOOO  Mental OOOO

Backstory:
Born to a temperamental Irish mother -father unknown- Valera Smith is firmly on the small side for a human... but compensates for it with a fiery personality, fiery-red looks and a freakish strength for her little frame. The first time her strength became apparent was when she saved her mother by throwing an armed burglar half across the house, through a barred window and several floors down... at the age of thirteen. Since then, her strength has steadily increased-though she barely grew an inch over five feet.
When she became eighteen years of age, a suit of arms and armor that fit her like an old glove magically appeared in her own room. Made of a dark, dull metal, the inch-thick armor weighed as much as a fair-sized car and the hammer that complemented it about a third as much. That was not a terribly great weight for Valera - in fact, she felt like one of those knights in shining armor donning them. And then came the second surprise; the armor could look like normal clothing as long as she didn't hold the hammer ready or did not test its sturdiness by hitting it.
Filled with glee, Valera got outside to test her new birthday present; she'd later come to know the full extent of the supernatural world and be visited -repeatedly- by her sinister father and his even more annoying (but in a good way) enemies...

Current Events:
Nearly four decades have passed since the seventies and Valera's awakening to the supernatural world. Now a full-grown woman, she is one of the tallest people in the world at 7 ft 7 inches and 7 thirteenths of an inch. Unlike normal humans with giantism she has a strong build, resembling an athletic 5-foot girl in analogies. Despite her relatively small size compared to some gargantuan supernaturals, her strength rivals that of a dragon or a very strong giant; she can lift nearly two hundred tons without any great effort and could throw around tanks or small locomotives.
Valera has now taken part in hundreds of supernatural conflicts, especially the hidden supernatural parts of several "human" conflicts around the world. She is well-known as a fighter for a good cause and even more for her legendary temper; when you can flatten a tank if angered, most people learn to tiptoe around you.
Oddly enough, her weapons and armor have grown with her, slowly adapting to her greater size. Most people think that's due to their magical nature though Valera suspects they've had help from the unnamed interlopers in her life.

SKILLS
+6 Might, Weapons, Intimidate
+5 Discipline, Fists, Resources
+4 Rapport, Endurance, Presence
+3 Conviction, Craftsmanship, Athletics
+2 Alertness, Lore, Contacts
+1 Guns, Scholarship, Drive (heavy vehicles only)

POWERS AND STUNTS
[-6] Mythic Strength
[-6] Mythic Toughness
[-2] Hulking Size
[+3] Catch is Silver
[+0] Inhuman Constitution (like the wizard's, to reflect that she eventually heals and she does not normally age)
[-1] Monstrous Strength (as per mighty thews-but without the bulky muscles)
[-1] Size Does Matter: +1 weapon rolls with oversized weaponry
[-1] Weaponsmaster: use weapons for defense rolls
[-1] Massive Blows: +2 damage with massive melee weapons
[-1] Smash Armor: negate up to 2 armor with melee weapons
[-1] Heavy Weapons Expert: use weapons instead of guns for attacks with heavy weapons such as RPGs, missile-launchers, autocannons and giant-portable tankbusters
[-2] Item of Power: The Arms of Talus
  * It is inch-thick armor from superheavy metal; weighs 10 tons and needs effective might 14 to wear comfortably but is armor rating 5
  * It is large-headed hammer from superheavy metal; weighs as much as a truck and needs effective might 15 to wield comfortably but is weapon rating 5
  * Indestructible
  * One-time Discount. +2 refresh
  * Human Guise
  * Physical Immunity: immune to magic (includes magic that would be beneficial). -3 refresh
  * True Strike. -1 refresh

ITEMS AND RESOURCES

Modified GAU-8: this two-ton weapon is a modified version of the avenger autocannon of an A-10 Thunderbolt. The frame has been modified to be mounted on the back and left hip of a huge humanoid and the hydraulic rotors have been replaced by an old gatlin mechanical equivalent that is rotated by hand. The avenger having a non-automatic mechanism and specifically fine-tuned against malfunction, this weapon is highly resistant to hexing. It has an effective range of 0.7 miles and is weapon 7 with armor-piercing (-2 armor) ammunition.
GPAD: this giant-portable surface-to-air missile launcher uses targeting lasers to guide 85-pound missiles with HEAT tandem warheads-alternatively, the missiles have their own heat-seeking mechanism if the wielder wants to fire and forget. Extremely sensitive to magic, it is only good against non-supernatural targets. Adapted from the Brimstone and Starstreak line of missiles and with a quick-reload mechanism, it has an operational radius of 7 miles, can hit both air and surface targets if the wielder uses the targeting laser and is weapon 8, +4 vs objects and machines.
Electronic Headgear: In addition to fine-crafted telescopic sights and an encrypted comm, this set also confers infravision and sound amplification for night operations.

[ballplayer72]

without chopping barrels off rifles you can get that size gun in reality.  A troll might eve be able to shoot it one handed if you modified the grips and triggers to fit his oversize hands.

Here is a link . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns

no no,   you misunderstand the bigness of the round.     those handguns (smith and wesson 500 and the desert eagle) shoot .50 AE or action express.  Its a pistol round.
The guns im' talking about shoot .50 BMG which is a rifle round that is.. well...  here just look at the link.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
its basically a bullet thats a little smaller than a full size crossbow bolt.     And it travels faster than the speed of sound.   
Put it this way, if I were to chop off the barrel of a barret .50 cal and use it as a pistol, the sheer force of using it one handed, un braced by sandbags and the prone shooting position, would break my arm like a twig.    Its a BIG round.  Much larger and packing alot more speed than a .50 AE pistol round.   Mostly because .50 AE is made for a pistol and doesn't shoot very far, and the .50 BMG will shoot up to 1 anda half miles accurately with a trained sniper (think thats the longest shot on record iirc)

[ballplayer72]

The recoil of the GAU-8/A in high setting is a bit over 45 kN. That would be half the armored troll's weight or so-about equal to a 100-pound human firing an AK-47 full-auto. High but not impossible.
As for what buildings can support 9-10 tons? Well, not many. But the troll is supposed to be a battlefield tank, not an urban setting investigator. Half-inch superalloy armor, antitank weaponry, what else could it be?


Incidentally, a submerged changeling or scion character with Might +5, Weapons +5, Athletics +4, Resources +4 and the following powers and stunts:
Hulking Size [-2], Supernatural Might [-4], Size Does Matter: +1 to attack and damage with weapons weighing over 200 pounds [-1], Supernatural Durability with Silver catch [-1] and Windfall [-1]
Could both buy and use the armor and the weapon.

So the question is, what's weapon rating for GAU-8 1-sec burst and what's armor rating for tank armor?
I'd say that since a burst from the GAU-8 is slightly less damaging than something that could tear down a small house so... weapon 7?
And light tank armor would be what, armor 5?

Well a sustained burst from a gau could conceivably destroy a small house.  you could almost cut the thing in half with it.    and its made to slice through couple inch thick tank armor.    that gun is just too overpowered unless youre trying to fight some sort of pitched war against SUPER high refresh enemies.

[ballplayer72]

Which reminds me;


That's one really tough little girl. She is adult in human terms but since she's a Nephilim, she's nowhere near grown yet. She'll eventually have Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Hulking Size, Massive Blows (stunt for +2 damage for heavy melee weapons), Smash Armor (stunt to reduce armor by 2) and maybe full immunity to magic when she unlocks the full potential of her armor.
She'll be 20ish refresh by then but she'll be a freakishly powerful combatant. Weapon 13 attack, Legendary attack and defense, 12 boxes physical stress and heavy armor. And she'll be able to use a tank for a thrown weapon with her +22 Might, provided the ground beneath her feet does not cave in or something.

Here's the full-grown version:

thats one freakishly overpowered character.   that apparently still doesn't have to do business with laws of physics.   Fun concept though if your GM doesn't mind.  Everybody likes to tank 

[Belial666]

She's actually weaker than the rules tould technically make her. Drop the hammer (but not True Strike), the armor, the supernatural toughness, the monstrous might needed to wield them and the immunity to magic and replace them with a longsword, advanced tactical suit and Physical Immunity with Catch Holy Stuff (researchable)
She is now weapon 7 instead of weapon 9 but she is immune to all damage unless it's holy stuff... and she still has armor 3 against holy stuff and an epic defense.


As for the GAU, a sustained burst would probably count as more than one exchange. Besides, weak exterior walls only have a stress track of 8. With a weapon 7 and a good roll to hit, you could deal 9 stress and break the wall. On the other hand, an ogre has a stress track of 10 and armor 2. You'd need five good hits with weapon 7 to take them out. That's why it says ogres are bulletproof.
(But a good hit at legendary attack with weapon 7 could take out the Ogre in one blow and Valera has Legendary and either weapon 7 or weapon 9, depending on if she wields her big hammer or a longsword)

[YuriPup]

heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.

That's Ringo, not Weber.

And I still want to know what the PCs are like, that you are pointing GAU-8s at.

BTW, just how strong is Tiny? Firing the gun is 10,000 lbs of load. For me, I probably wouldn't include the GAU-8 in my game. If I were it would do a damage of [[ plot ]] and an effect of [[ plot ]] on the shooter. In my book you need something bigger than Tiny to deal with the recoil, reasonably, of a GAU-8.

However, had you brought that up for me as a player, before giving me a chance to give it a physics smell test I would have declared "DIVE FOR COVER!"