Author Topic: Real heavy weapons/armor?  (Read 14395 times)

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Real heavy weapons/armor?
« on: August 04, 2010, 06:27:24 PM »
Both human technology and rare materials can make for very powerful, very deadly weaponry. Typically, such weaponry is simply too heavy to be carried by humans but almost all supernatural creatures have some version of supernatural strength. Yes, many supernatural creatures are terribly hidebound but a great deal of them do use advanced technology. So, a few options for our inhumanly strong opponents that occured to me;


If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so. What about the same armor from various superalloys? It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?

Offline ballplayer72

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5965
  • sweet i love being a pirate
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 06:46:25 PM »
Both human technology and rare materials can make for very powerful, very deadly weaponry. Typically, such weaponry is simply too heavy to be carried by humans but almost all supernatural creatures have some version of supernatural strength. Yes, many supernatural creatures are terribly hidebound but a great deal of them do use advanced technology. So, a few options for our inhumanly strong opponents that occured to me;


If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so. What about the same armor from various superalloys? It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?

Well that hammer's shaft couldn't be made of wood.  It'd have to be made of tungsten as well (steel bends from that kind of force.  Pretty sure tungsten does too, but i'll go with it) which would increase the weight alot.   I'd say a 3 or maybe a 4 depending on your level of refresh.  High refresh game go for a 4 if your DM is cool with it. But it seems vastly overpowered.  Plus i'd make it SLOW for balance's sake.


Armor sounds cool.  Would work for a massive non fae. can't see why not. I'd make it slow as well.


The gau.      Its a freaking anti tank weapon.  Unless you're shooting at something like ferrovax or being of similarly ridiculous level of pure might, its gonna one shot anything it touches.

Heck if you even WING a human with a 30mm round its going to take his freaking arm off causing shock and death in 9 out of 10 cases.   I'd put it at plot device level unless youre in a SERIOUSLY high refresh game.
Only a dumb SOB brings a knife to a gunfight

Offline YuriPup

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 06:54:39 PM »
On the 30MM--depends on how much of a tech-bane magic is around the ogre is. Mind you the gun needs a power source to drive the barrels and that there is no single fire mode on it. And that 600 LB weight is without the motor to drive it.

Not to mention is way out of the ability for most to purchase--and maybe even steel. Its a lot of iron for a fae. I can't really think of anything else that could get close to using it, other than Ferrovar.

I also would say the recoil is a bitch.

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 07:14:43 PM »
Well, to break the average steel handle you need more than ten tons per square inch. To break tungsten superalloys that are four square inches... naah. Superman might be able to do it. Not many other people though.

But why would you make the armor and hammer slow? If the wielder has effective might 10-11 (4-5 ranks plus supernatural strength) the hammer will be heavy but not heavier in comparison than a twenty-pounder for a normal human. If the wielder is a troll warrior (4-5 plus hulking size plus mighty thews plus supernatural strength) he'd have an effective might of 14-15 and the hammer would actually be fairly light for them.

Offline ballplayer72

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5965
  • sweet i love being a pirate
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 08:06:45 PM »
Well, to break the average steel handle you need more than ten tons per square inch. To break tungsten superalloys that are four square inches... naah. Superman might be able to do it. Not many other people though.

But why would you make the armor and hammer slow? If the wielder has effective might 10-11 (4-5 ranks plus supernatural strength) the hammer will be heavy but not heavier in comparison than a twenty-pounder for a normal human. If the wielder is a troll warrior (4-5 plus hulking size plus mighty thews plus supernatural strength) he'd have an effective might of 14-15 and the hammer would actually be fairly light for them.

you said that the hammer head by itself would weigh "a ton and a half"   thats 3000 lbs.  Thats like a a big f 350.   I don't care how strong your troll is, that thing is going to move SLOW.     doesn't matter how strong you are, you're going to need LEVERAGE to move it.  as harry is wont to say over and over again,  you must still do business with the laws of physics. 

NOTE:   BLAMPIRES.  Theyre super freaking strong.  Like tear through solid steel strong.   Surely strong enough to resist a kick to the face through sheer main strength.  Harry knocks the crap out of one though.  WHY?   Because it weighs as much as a corpse no matter how strong it is and thus if his force exceeds its weight its going to move.

So youre troll is superstrong.  Groovy, have him rip someones arms off and beat them to death with them.  That would be epic.
All epicness aside though, he still has a physical weight.   What is it?    If itsin excess of that hammer, then yeah he can swing that beast around.  However that hammers HEAD weighs 3000 pound.    how much would a 3 ft long, 2 inch thick tungsten bar weigh? (not to mention the cost of BOTH of thsoe amonuts of tungsten would be astronomical) Add those two together.    So youre troll has to exceed that weight to really be able to manhandle that thing withtou going flying.      Hope he doesn't have to walk across any rickety bridges or try to be quiet ever.   Also hope he doesn't have tile floors or something .  He'll crush them with a footfall.  ;D

What Im' saying is if he weighs something closer to reality (say a ton at the outside) then that hammer weighs about half again as much as he does.  Which means he's going to be pretty unable to control his momentum, because it will pick him up off the ground to do so.  Which makes that a very effectivve weapon, but only under the right circumstances because its ungainly as all get out.  Hence the SLOW provision.  Maybe just make it so you ALWAYS get the last attack or something.  Or perhaps less attacks.  Or a penalty to actually hit anything.  It needs something to denote that its an ungainly weapon.  Either THAT or you need to put something on your character that denotes taht he weigshs more than most duellie trucks and how that causes him to effect the world around him.
Only a dumb SOB brings a knife to a gunfight

Offline HumAnnoyd

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
    • Dresden Files Accelerated: The Emerald City: Requiem
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 08:33:12 PM »
Quote
I also would say the recoil is a bitch.


Exactly.  An A-10 Thunderbolt has to fire their guns in short bursts or the recoil will knock them out of the sky.  And they weigh 30,384 lb unloaded!  I don't care how big your Troll or Ogre is I don't think he will be able to handle that. 
It's not the Heat, It's the Humanity.

The Emerald City Dresden Files Accelerated Campaign:   http://fate-accelerated-the-emerald-city.obsidianportal.com/

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 09:32:56 PM »
Tiny, who is about as big as a troll, is already as big as an elephant. How big is an elephant? 6000 pounds? 8000 pounds? More? If they have the strength to lift the 3000-pound hammer, they won't be unbalanced.
Besides, this is where the armor comes in. An armored troll that can lift its armor will also be much more difficult to unbalance due to the extra, evenly added weight. And yeah, now that armored Blampire will weigh about half a ton. A lot harder to push around, no?

Quote
doesn't matter how strong you are, you're going to need LEVERAGE to move it.
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration... provided your support is solid enough to take it. Assuming the troll is just as strong pound-for-pound for a human and it is elephant-sized, it has about fifty to seventy times the strength (I.e. it has an effective might of +12)


As for the GAU-8/A, yeah, it is a bit bigger than what a troll could carry. Maybe a giant? Do giants even exist in Dresdenverse? (since there are Norse gods, there must be giants too)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:43:49 PM by Belial666 »

Offline ballplayer72

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5965
  • sweet i love being a pirate
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 11:42:24 PM »
Tiny, who is about as big as a troll, is already as big as an elephant. How big is an elephant? 6000 pounds? 8000 pounds? More? If they have the strength to lift the 3000-pound hammer, they won't be unbalanced.
Besides, this is where the armor comes in. An armored troll that can lift its armor will also be much more difficult to unbalance due to the extra, evenly added weight. And yeah, now that armored Blampire will weigh about half a ton. A lot harder to push around, no?
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration... provided your support is solid enough to take it. Assuming the troll is just as strong pound-for-pound for a human and it is elephant-sized, it has about fifty to seventy times the strength (I.e. it has an effective might of +12)


As for the GAU-8/A, yeah, it is a bit bigger than what a troll could carry. Maybe a giant? Do giants even exist in Dresdenverse? (since there are Norse gods, there must be giants too)


Depends on the elephant.   African elephants that live on the savannah (savannah elephents) can weigh from 7700 to 26000.  And they are quite a bit larger than tiny.  Largest land mammal.  Tiny was tall like them (they go to 10 to 13 feet and tiny was what like 9-12?) but he wasn't wide and long like them.   make him an even 4000 at the topside.
Its pretty tough to swing around a weapon that weighs a significant fraction of your mass.   I'd say over half of your weight and swinging that thing would send you flying off balance.   Even with the super strength.     Maybe downsize the thing so it doesn't weigh like 3000plus pounds.   Take it to half size at 1500 total and I'd say you're idea makes sense.

Indeed the armor would help with the whole weighing less than your weapon problem. 
Only a dumb SOB brings a knife to a gunfight

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 11:57:15 PM »
So, what should be the weapon rating of a 1500 pound hammer? A car is weapon 5. It has a far larger impact area though-the hammer focuses that much power on a square foot or less.

Offline Bubba Amon Hotep

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 12:59:00 AM »
Average weight of an adult African Elephant is 4.6 Tons (9,000lbs)

Elephants can carry an Average of 1,200 pounds.

Average running speed 12 to 20 mph (19 to 32 kph) depending on the species, temperate and other factors.
However, most tend to stick to a steady speed of about 4 mph (6 kph).

-----

With those facts, considering the hammer and the armor.  I would say it would be one or the other.  Not both.  And regardless the creature in question would be slower than turtles in peanut butter.

----

How much is 1200 lbs? 
Well the modern Nissan Versa is 2726lbs, and the Classic Beetle weighs in around 2100 lbs.

My point, if a Car is weapon 5, then a huge hammer 1500 lbs is weapon 4.

But take into consideration.  it is easier to miss with a hammer.  Therefore, perhaps it is better to wield a car, its bigger, and you have more area to hit with.  Put it on a chain perhaps and swing it around? 

If we are going off the deep end and coming up with weapons for the HULK to wield, lets go off the deep end.

Offline CableRouter

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 02:23:42 AM »
Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so.
Given modern firearms to attack it with, a quarter inch of steel isn't bulletproof and is barely bullet resistant.  A modern .308 rifle could penetrate that to a couple hundred yards, modern military ammo (like Soviet or Chinese ammo with mild steel cores to cut costs) can penetrate a quarter inch of steel at 500 yards.  Modern armor piercing ammo could penetrate half an inch of steel armor plate at 300 yards and a quarter inch at double or triple that.  A .50 BMG rifle, which is sure to be dragged out if armored trolls are on the offense, can easily penetrate an inch of steel plate at 200 yards with standard ammo.

Quote
What about the same armor from various superalloys?
In generate these alloys aren't used as armor because when a plate gets too rigid it shatters much easier, other much denser alloys are often softer than steel, like depleted Uranium.  In general you don't end up saving a whole lot of weight, it just ends up thinner for the same protection.  But at this point you're talking about 3/4 of a ton on a man sized suit to keep out anything smaller than a .50 BMG rifle with Armor Piercing ammunition.

Quote
It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

The other problem is that weight grows exponentially with size.  Double the size and you need eight times as much armor for the same protection; a 12' troll is going to need 6 tons of armor to keep out .50 rifle rounds and at that point someone's just going to treat it as the fae equivalent of a tank and hit it with a rocket.  Or magic, how well do you think a troll can swim in quicksand while wearing 6 tons of metal armor?

Quote
Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?

The GAU-8 is a tad more than 600 pounds.  Fully assembled it weighs just over 4,000 pounds with ammunition and that's without a power supply to rotate the barrels.  It's also a tad unwieldy, it's longer than a car and the ammo drum is about as big around as a volkswagen beetle.  You don't casually pick one up and swing it around without a plane sized mount for it.  For the same reason that if you could lift 50,000 tons you couldn't pick up a building and throw it - you'd just come away with two handfuls of concrete and the building would still be intact.

As for weapon rating?  The FATE system doesn't really model armor or damage above a personal scale, it just becomes a plot device at that point.  I've got better systems to use if a GAU-8 Avenger Cannon becomes a standard ranged weapon I need to stat out.

Also:
Quote from: HumAnnoyd
An A-10 Thunderbolt has to fire their guns in short bursts or the recoil will knock them out of the sky.
Complete myth I'm afraid, there isn't even enough recoil on that thing to even slow it down a few mph when it fires.  The reason it fires in short bursts is to avoid burning out the barrels through overheating.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:43:31 PM by CableRouter »

Offline TheMouse

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 02:30:12 AM »
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration...

You would seem to be using the word "acceleration" incorrectly in terms of physics. I posit that you're looking for "velocity" for this conversation.

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 03:05:26 AM »
OK, looked up a few actual stats;

Normal orge effective might: +8 Ogre size: large as a pickup truck. So I'd peg it at 4-5 meters tall. If its torso is about two meters tall, two wide and one thick, that's already four tons. (do note that normal ogres have no might skill - which is strange IMHO)
Tiny's effective might: +10. Tiny's size: about as big as an elephant. He wields a sword long as a car.
Magog's effective might: +19. Magog is about 800 pounds.

Might required to lift large furniture without penalty: +7
Might required to lift motorcycle without penalty: +11
Might required to lift medium car without penalty: +13

Might required to break metal door/thin interior wall: +6
Might required to break thin exterior wall: +8
Might required to break vault door: +12


So the effective might required to wield both one ton of armor and one ton of hammer (two tons total) without penalty is +13. That's might +5, mighty thews and supernatural strength, or a refresh cost of -5. An ogre or vampire with the might skill could do it. Someone with all strength boosts at submerged (Mythic ST, Hulking Size, Mighty Thews, +5 might) has enough might to lift locomotives and peel off vault doors without rolling.

Offline ballplayer72

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5965
  • sweet i love being a pirate
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 04:31:41 AM »
So, what should be the weapon rating of a 1500 pound hammer? A car is weapon 5. It has a far larger impact area though-the hammer focuses that much power on a square foot or less.


WEll 1500 lbs is about as much as an 1500 or f 150 truck (the normal truck.  Not the SUPEERRRRR big ones, just the normal v 8 style trucks) give or take a bit. EDIT those numbers be offf.  teach me to drink daquiris and post factoids :P     I'd still go with about a 5.  maybe a 4.      It hits with the force of a swung car.

Make it a 5 i guess.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:33:40 AM by ballplayer72 »
Only a dumb SOB brings a knife to a gunfight

Offline ralexs1991

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 07:48:31 AM »

It hits with the force of a swung car.

Make it a 5 i guess.

I'm tempted to give it higher than that just because all of that force is going to be focused into a far smaller area that much force in such a small area would pulverize bone and liquefy organs and soft tissue pretty much an instant kill
Oh, hi, Mr. Warden!  How are you this fine day?  My, what a shiny sword you have there...