Author Topic: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?  (Read 8555 times)

Offline Ophidimancer

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 06:21:35 AM »
I'm sure you can find some justification to allow Thaumaturgy to be done fast enough for combat, but I still wouldn't recommend it for any GM out there.  It blurs the line between Thaumaturgy and Evocation and Sponsored Magic in a way that I don't think is good for the game.  Someone who has created their character to be good at Evocation might not like being outdone by someone who made their character a good Thaumaturgist, and what would be the benefit of taking Sponsored Magic, if Thaumaturgy can be almost as good just on its own?

You want to let each character shine at the thing they're good at, give everyone some screen time.  This means separating out what different characters are proficient at.  This is why the game system has Skill levels and why powers cost Refresh in the first place.

Offline ralexs1991

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 07:32:05 AM »
The Merlin can Combat Ward for example.
Also you have to remember that this is the Merlin the most powerful wizard alive he gets to do all sorts of borderline plot device things
Oh, hi, Mr. Warden!  How are you this fine day?  My, what a shiny sword you have there...

Offline ralexs1991

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 07:36:10 AM »
As a GM I probably wouldn't let this happen in my game w/o some kind of sponsored magic or a consequence fitting what they're trying to pull off but even with the sponsor and/or the consequence I'd severely limit how far they could go with an on the spot thaum spell
Oh, hi, Mr. Warden!  How are you this fine day?  My, what a shiny sword you have there...

Offline Wyrdrune

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 10:51:43 AM »
Quote
As far as I have seen in the books you don't actually need anything other than your mind to cast any thaum. You'd have to be crazy or desperate to try and pull it off without it but you could (and Harry actually does) do the entire ritual in your mind, chances are it goes horribly wrong and you fail though since you lack all of the material aids that make it easier to pull off.

yep, but we should add: and when harry did it in
(click to show/hide)
he still needed several minutes to an quarter of an hour to do it.

Offline Ala Alba

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 04:11:36 PM »
"Sponsored magic" is probably the best and simplest way to handle it.

Remember, Kemmlerian Necromancy is considered Sponsored Magic, yet it's really nothing more than a specific type of knowledge/training.

So, a simple -2 refresh for some bonuses to a type of Thaumaturgy + at the speed of Evocation. Seems easy enough to me.

Offline Lanir

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 05:22:26 PM »
Still reading the relevant chapter. Two things I notice though... The White Council's headquarters at Edinburgh is a nexus of ley lines. So if using that is Sponsored Magic then it looks like the simplest explanation. Also, the example with a dagger for gathering blood wouldn't work out so hot in practice. It sounds fine on paper but you'd have to get a pretty horrific stab wound on someone and let the dagger sit in there for a few seconds at least to be sure it was filled with blood. A slash wouldn't really do it because you'd be as likely to have centripetal force fling the blood off of the blade as not. Assuming you can bury a dagger in someone's guts and let it soak for a few seconds, you have to then retrieve it and go through all the mental exercises which sound like they make you utterly out of touch with combat. Which is not only dangerous but it's hard to ignore, probably making the task more difficult. And you wouldn't have a circle to keep out any unpleasant influences. The mat idea has similar problems.

Offline ahunting

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2010, 08:25:58 PM »
In the end how it works is already defined (See my previous post). Its up to GM to call it as they see it. Cannon has examples of it being done. If you as GM think its bad news, then its bad news. But i'd be sure you have good answer when player start asking questions.

Offline Fandraen

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 09:59:51 PM »
ahunting: The thing is, it's not already defined. That sidebar covers a particular effect of *sponsored magic*. Among other things, it allows you to cast in one round, but also *requires* you to cast in one round, and on targets in line of sight. It's very clearly thaumaturgy *with evocation methods and speeds*-- and constraints--, not just what thaumaturgy looks like if you're a master of ritual.

The question is, what breaks (if anything) if the "you can skip preparation for spells with complexity below your lore" rule is interpreted to be "preparation takes no time/happens offscreen because you're a boy scout and always prepared, and only casting time counts". So, a maneuver-only spell of complexity 3 would probably only be one round, but a thaumaturgist could also spend several rounds casting in the usual way for a spell of much higher complexity (say, 14).

Pros and cons relative to other powers I can see:
- An evocator is building up stress much faster than the thaumaturgist (evocation requires one stress per spell when building power; thaum doesn't, advantage to thaum)
- An evocator can use rote spells for zero risk casting (this is one advantage to the sponsored magic approach as well)
- A failed thaum spell is likely to hurt more/cause more problems than evocation (advantage to evocation and sponsored magic)
- A thaumaturgist can spend several rounds to build up to more powerful spells (I think this is advantage thaum; larger spells are higher-risk, though. Evocators and sponsored magic users can create maneuvers that can be tagged for Conviction and Discipline rolls for higher-powered spells, but that's an effective +2/round, versus an expected +min[Conviction, Discipline]/round; for a wizard, the latter seems likely to be higher.)
- A thaumaturgist/sponsored magician can create arbitrary effects, not just unsubtle/high force effects like Evocation (advantage thaum/sponsored)
- A thaumaturgist is not limited to line of sight, although unlike an evocator/sponsored magician he needs a symbolic link to target (....wash?)
- A thaumaturgist doesn't get to buy a power bonus, just a control bonus; complexity is going to be a ceiling for the power of the spell, but doesn't actually contribute to raising that power quickly. (Slight bonus Evocation/sponsored magic.)
- An evocator was not required to have a high lore in order to create powerful spells in combat, thus potentially saving skill points for better Conviction/Discipline (Slight bonus evocation, maybe; two relevant skills instead of three, but we're currently just looking at combat casting and the world is more complicated than that.)
- A thaumaturgist preparing an enhanced evocation effect (like a ward) can add complexity to enhance duration; an evocator has to channel power each round. Given a one-complexity-shift-per-duration-increase
- A thaumaturgist's one shift bump in spell duration for enhanced evocation is, as written, longer than an evocator's. Even assuming it is scaled back to match evocation (one shift per additional exchange) a thaumaturgist can spend one extra round to gain an expected min(Conviction,Discipline) additional rounds of effect. The evocator can do the same under the Prolonging Spells rules, but it costs stress. Then again, that extra turn for evocation won't cause the spell to explode with more power if you fail the roll, unlike thaum. (Wash?)

Outside of combat, the high-lore character is spending more exchanges building power, while the low-lore high-discipline/conviction character is spending scenes of preparation/exchanges of maneuvers to create taggable aspects.

This seems to boil down to "Evocation is much safer, but is guaranteed to wear you down"; "Thaumaturgy is very flexible, you can do it all day, and it will usually get you completely awesome effects, but will occasionally blow up in your face and cause massive damage". Sponsored magic gets you the safety of evocation and the flexibility of thaumaturgy, but constrains you to less totally awesome effects than straight thaumaturgy. (You only get one round to build power, and there's probably a limit to how much power you can gain from going into debt.) That seems to make the thaum-with-evocation-speed-and-methods power useful but not in and of itself worth 2 refresh; you're also probably getting some power boost, but it's probably a wash or even a little weaker than a point of refinement. (Kemmerlites, for example, get the equivalent of a Refinement in necromancy, although it doesn't appear to follow the usual specialization-stacking requirements; Summer, however, doesn't.) Then again, is the added flexibility and potential power of thaumaturgy in combat worth 1-2 refresh in general? (i.e, is sponsored magic from, say, the fae actually worth the cost for a wizard? Discounting the "ooh, fun plot" factor; I don't think we generally assume that plot should cost refresh.)

Has anyone run a long enough campaign with wizards in it to get a sense of how big an advantage the lack of stress from Thaumaturgy (vs Evocation) would be?
Do conflicts normally resolve in four exchanges or less, or are they longer? And if you're going to chime in with data, please talk a little about the number of players and character strength.

(Alternately, if any of the gamewriters want to chime in with a "No, thaumaturgy ought to take some minimum number of exchanges, and here's how many and why", I'd love to hear it.)

Offline luminos

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 10:06:05 PM »
Consider that the basic effect of most thaumaturgy spells is stronger than the equivalently powered version of the evocation spell.  Thaumaturgic wards can block and reflect for the same cost it takes evocation to block, and thaumaturgy can veil entire buildings for the same cost evocation can veil a single person.  There are many more cases where thaumaturgy is just flat out stronger than evocation, and letting a player use those at evocation speeds, without costing refresh, just breaks stuff.
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Offline greycouncilmember

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 07:06:14 PM »
Consider that the basic effect of most thaumaturgy spells is stronger than the equivalently powered version of the evocation spell.  Thaumaturgic wards can block and reflect for the same cost it takes evocation to block, and thaumaturgy can veil entire buildings for the same cost evocation can veil a single person.  There are many more cases where thaumaturgy is just flat out stronger than evocation, and letting a player use those at evocation speeds, without costing refresh, just breaks stuff.

Why would it cost the same to block and reflect with thaum as it would to block in evocation?  You still have to beat a target value don't you? 

Offline luminos

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 07:08:40 PM »
Why would it cost the same to block and reflect with thaum as it would to block in evocation?  You still have to beat a target value don't you? 

A 5 shift ward blocks at strength 5, reflects damage if the attacker rolls under that strength, does not disappear if the attacker beats it (unless he uses his attack to reduce the power of the ward), and lasts an entire day.  A 5 shift evocation block can block at strength 5 for one exchange, goes away if beaten, and does not reflect attacks that don't beat it. 
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Offline greycouncilmember

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 07:11:07 PM »
Thank you, makes sense now.

Offline JustinS

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2010, 02:41:15 AM »
Also you have to remember that this is the Merlin the most powerful wizard alive he gets to do all sorts of borderline plot device things
I figure the impressive things you see senior council folk do make good things to aspire to. Combat warding sounds much saner to me then combat shape-shifting, or soul magic (4+ and 3+ refresh respectively).

That said, we have have been seeing him tossing around +8 or +9 evocation blocks around on screen...

Offline Belial666

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2010, 02:44:23 PM »
Not just 8-9 evocation blocks. We've seen him holding a fiend made out of Mordite and prevent it from attacking the rest of the wizards. That's seriously powerful magic.

Offline evilnerf

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Re: Thamaturgy at the speed of Evocation through high lore?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2010, 02:53:50 PM »
For that matter, how do you work portals to the Nevernever?  Characters seem to be open the Ways quickly and without any real prep but they are still Thaumaturgy.