Thaumaturgy Questuons

[Morfedel]

Ok, I grok the game overall, though I've gritched over a few things. But now I'm not sure about a few things, specifically in regards to Thaumaturgy.

1. How would "buffs" work? This all came up while considering Dresden's escape potion. I don't understand how that potion was built mechanically, but also, how would one build, say, a superspeed or superstrength potion? My first thought was that the strength of an enchanted item or potion hat does this would be equal to he equivalent Athletics or Might you wanted, but I didn't see any guidelines for "puffing" someone.

Heck, the transportation and worldwalking portion didn't really help much in determining the potion/item strength at all - it read like theory without practice.

2. Wards. I didn't see a rule on anything limiting their strength. It seemed like if I have a discipline of 5, I could put 1 point of power in it over and over without ever failing a roll. Obviously there has to be some kind of realistic limit, otherwise "I'm going have Sade strength of, oh, 50 on this. Good luck breaking in."   

I had a third question, but it slipped my mind. It'll come to me. 

[Papa Gruff]

Ok... I'll try this but potions are tricky and probably one of the most fluent parts of wizardry.

1. How would "buffs" work? This all came up while considering Dresden's escape potion. I don't understand how that potion was built mechanically, but also, how would one build, say, a superspeed or superstrength potion? My first thought was that the strength of an enchanted item or potion hat does this would be equal to he equivalent Athletics or Might you wanted, but I didn't see any guidelines for "puffing" someone.

Heck, the transportation and worldwalking portion didn't really help much in determining the potion/item strength at all - it read like theory without practice.

The effect potions take are actually quite simple. You get what you put in. The basic potion can never have a higher quality then your Lore skill. However that can be boosted thought invocations of aspects. In the example of the book Harry can create potions at a level of +3 (his lore value). He spends a fate point to boost that to +5. The effect of the potion is then equal to a sprinting action that generates five shifts. In other words. The drinker of this potion will be able to sprint up to five zones in one exchange.

You had the right thought. It works the same of any other skill. If you want to boost your strength through a potion I'd argue, that the potion adds on it's power to your might roll. This can be adapted to nearly any other skill. The guidelines are all there really...

2. Wards. I didn't see a rule on anything limiting their strength. It seemed like if I have a discipline of 5, I could put 1 point of power in it over and over without ever failing a roll. Obviously there has to be some kind of realistic limit, otherwise "I'm going have Sade strength of, oh, 50 on this. Good luck breaking in."   

Generally the complexity limit of a thaumaturgic spell is the Lore value of the caster. Wards are thaumaturgic spells and are hence covered by the same rules. You may boost the complexity of a ward in the same way you boost any other thaumaturgic spell (preparation). Keep in mind that preparation takes time, so unless you don't want to wait and wait and wait or spend huge amounts of fate points you'll have to declare aspects that will help you when preparing the spell. It's likely that you'll be able to come up with several aspects to declare witch is good and fine, but as with any declaration it is up to the GM to allow them, to make them difficult or to veto them. So ultimately the GM decides how strong your ward will get.

Once you have finished the preparation and start casting you are right. With a discipline of +5 it's only a matter of time to complete the spell.

I had a third question, but it slipped my mind. It'll come to me. 

Perhaps it will come to you eventually.

[babel2uk]

I think when one of my PCs asked about the wards on his home - because I didn't want to spend ages working everything out I just asked him what he wanted it to do and set the strength limit of the generic Ward itself as double his Lore. In the end he added a couple of entry talismans and a monthly duration - which took the power needed up to about 15 or 16. Which was about what I figured would be the maximum I'd allow without him actually setting things up properly in game time. There was - I think - a single point's difference which I wasn't going to quibble about.

[JesterOC]

Damn I noticed that this really does not relate to your question directly. But since I wrote it all, and it could be useful, I'm posting it anyway.  
In this I discuss the mechanics of the escape potion and how to apply it in game (because it was not obvious to me either).

Potions are specialized Thaumaturgical spells at the strength of your Lore.

The escape potion was detailed mechanically on page 281. In this case it was shift (power) 5 thaumaturgy spell that lets the user act as if they rolled a 5 (because it was power 5) to cross a barrier to another zone. It also allows passage through impassible barriers.

This example is a great one because it hinges on a very tricky concept for thaumaturgy. In fact it is one of the most oddball rule in a rpg I have every read.  It is the kind of thing that when I read it as text I said.. OK fine I get it, but when time came to actually use it in play, I said "whaaaa?".

So a barrier Superb +5 is indicates that a being of masterful capacity, or the combination of extreme talent and good training should be able to accomplish the task. At the same time, you can do the impossible. Whaaa?  So you have to ask yourself.. if it is possible escape through the cracks around a door, how hard would that be. How about how hard would it be to escape through an electrical fence by going through it, flying over it?

I would approach it this way (but it may be "wrong" so please anyone correct me if you disagree). If the description of the effect appears to circumvent the normal concept of impossible, assign a difficulty based solely on how possible it seems given the current effect.

For example the potion of escape we will imagine that the description of the potion is that you dissolve into mist and are allowed to move in mist form for one exchange.

Situation 1: Need to get through a wrought iron fence. How hard would it be for mist to get through a wrought iron fence. It is trivial, barrier level 0.
Situation 2: Need to get through a electric fence. Well there is a possibility that the electricity might arc through you under the right conditions. So the barrier is strength 2.
Situation 3: Need to get through a electric fence and there are 50 mph winds blowing all over the place. You figure that it will require great skill to keep your form in these conditions. So the barrier is strength 5.

Hope this helps even if it is a bit off topic.

Edit note: I changed the Barrier level in the first situation to 0, for some reason I thought that it had to be a minimum of 1.

[Morfedel]

Hm. Jester, thanks. I see what you mean.

But in a way I think that Papa Gruff has the right of it... sorta. Harry only moved one zone I think. I think the rule book said that too. Don't quote me, but that's how it felt.

He shifted only one zone... but the potion allowed him to ignore up to 5 points of barrier. That sounds about right.

In other words, I think the proper answer is a hybrid of Papa Gruffs and yours, Jester.

As for the magic, remember, magic says it allows you to do the improbable or impossible. So with the whole crack under the door thing, he could still open the door or, if its locked, MAYBE break it down, so he could get through it if the door is somehow passable with 5 shifts. Only if it is air-tight (as he turned into wind), or if it would otherwise have required at least 6 shifts, would it have failed.

Ok, I'm relieved now, thanks!

As for the wards and such, I didn't see Lore listed as a limit, but it is for just about everything else, and it makes a great deal of sense... and who knows, maybe I jut missed it anyway. So, either way, good to go, thanks!

[Belial666]

All barriers can be broken or surpassed. Even a sealed, heavily fortified vault door  can be broken with 12 shifts of strength.

So a 12-shift escape potion would allow you to pass through.

[JesterOC]

How about a little another thought experiment to help solidify my understanding.

A Wizard is trapped in a sealed glass cube under ten feet of water.  The water pressure is so strong that he can't use his strength to open the glass door.

So he pulls out Harry's escape potion, and declares that he wants to atomize himself and squeeze through the watertight seals of the cube.

What is the difficulty doing that?

Now think of the exact situation, but the potion turns the drinker into light which can pass right through the cube and out to the surface*.

What is the difficulty doing that?

I would say the difficulty rating of the second example is much lower than the first. I think the narrative should have a direct correlation to the difficulty of the task, just like all other difficulty assignments.

I hope this helps further the discussion.

* I would assume that a description like turning to light should probably cost more to create than atomizing yourself. So that narrative description should cost a lot more than "just" atomizing yourself. Or if you and the GM could agree on a set of limitations that might lower the power level. Like black objects can damage you because they absorb you as you hit it.

Added asterisk comment after thinking about it some more.

[Belial666]

On the contrary, the difficulty of the barrier being 10 (6 tons of force on the door = 10-shift might effect to open), the only difference in bypassing it would be in how much of a "change" we are talking about. And changing to light is more of a change than changing to a very powerful gust of wind.

[JesterOC]

Thats why I brought this up, I think the effect of the potion affects the difficulty.

To come up with a difficulty number the GM has to ask himself what level of power or expertise would be required to accomplish the task.

The difficulty of the task is related directly to how the task is being overcome. For example you have a massive solid steel door that has an electronic lock on it.

The lock would require a Dif rating of +4 to pick
The door would require a Dif rating of +12 (its THAT huge).
A Fey would be required have a dif rating of +22 (its THAT steely!)

I propose that the same is true for magic potions and other spells, they change the nature of the task, and thus if crafted correctly, the difficulty could be effected!

However if you used a potion to make you stronger, and you wanted to bash it in, then it just adds to your shifts as you describe.