Manuvers in a nutshell

[austinmonster]

I don't have my books on me, and i'm in the middle of having a discussion about Maneuvers... Is there anyway anyone here could refresh my memory with a reader's digest version of what I need to know about them?

how are they applied in a fight?
How many successes are required to place one though evocation?
How long do they last? (both though traditional maneuvers and through evocation-style ones).

What else do I need to know about them?

Also as an additional question - how powerful can you make a compel from a maneuver?  I understand about causing someone to drop their weapon by placing the "disarmed" maneuver on someone, but what if you threw sand in their eyes and compelled them not only to miss, but to shoot someone else by accident?

[JosephKell]

I don't have my books on me, and i'm in the middle of having a discussion about Maneuvers... Is there anyway anyone here could refresh my memory with a reader's digest version of what I need to know about them?

Nutshell: Difficulty 3 (or defender's roll, whichever is higher) to apply a temporary aspect on the scene or target.  You get one free Tag.  Shifts of effect are additional invoke usages (but you have to use fate points).

how are they applied in a fight?

"I am going to try to the nerd an atomic wedgie."  Roll Might vs. Nerd's Athletics to apply "Uncomfortable Underwear" to the Nerd.

How many successes are required to place one though evocation?

Evocation maneuvers require 3 shifts of power get just the free tag.  Each extra shift is another tag of stickiness.

How long do they last? (both though traditional maneuvers and through evocation-style ones).

Generally the scene, until used up, or until removed with a maneuver.

What else do I need to know about them?

Also as an additional question - how powerful can you make a compel from a maneuver?  I understand about causing someone to drop their weapon by placing the "disarmed" maneuver on someone, but what if you threw sand in their eyes and compelled them not only to miss, but to shoot someone else by accident?

The compel should be related to the aspect.  So for it to be powerful (do exactly what you want) it needs to be specific, which may make it is harder to invoke/tag for more uses.

An evocation maneuver of "Scatter the Scourge!" (a blast of force to scatter a pack of ghouls so the heroes can try to escape) is basically a compel for them to "be moved aside."  You can't easily use that same aspect to punch one ghoul in the face.

[Deadmanwalking]

Nutshell: Difficulty 3 (or defender's roll, whichever is higher) to apply a temporary aspect on the scene or target.  You get one free Tag.  Shifts of effect are additional invoke usages (but you have to use fate points).

This isn't true for non-Evocation Maneuvers. Those you just have to beat the opponent's Defense roll to apply the Aspect for a turn, and beat it by one or more shifts to make it Sticky (in which case it lasts the scene or until removed).

[austinmonster]

That all really helps!

so is it always 3 shifts to place a maneuver on a scene regardless of how you do it?   With three shifts, it's "fragile" and only lasts a turn, but if you get one shift past what you need, it's now "sticky" right?   What do extra shifts do beyond that?  can you get extra tags out of them?

I have had no problem with doing creative things with compels.  For example - a foe that's gotten the tag "blinded" could be caused to flat-out miss for one fate point (or using the tag)  but if you had TWO fate points to spend (or one fate point, and using up the tag) you could cause him to shoot one of his allies.  I don't mind being more free form with maneuvers and the like, but I have players who crave more crunch with their rules.   It's like watching them go though withdraws.

[CMEast]

For evocation it is at least 3 shifts for a manoeuvre, further shifts only serve to make it sticky; sticky meaning that it will stay until the end of the scene even if you tag it. You cannot add further tags.

If it's thaumaturgy then it can be less than 3 shifts (as thaumaturgy is more powerful) and the duration is up to commonsense/gm's discretion, but you can build in additional free tags, so if it's only a 2 shift manoeuvre then you can get an extra tag for 4 shifts, 3 tags for 6 shifts and so on, an extra shift would make it sticky as normal so once all tags have been used it will continue to exist.

You can't tag or invoke the same aspect twice for the same roll but you could try to declare that the 'blinded' foe shoots his ally with just one tag/fatepoint-fueled declaration; however as you rightly say the GM will probably just say it results in a miss. On the other hand with two relevant aspects like 'blinded' and 'confused' you could very well use two fate points/tags to achieve this result.

[luminos]

For evocation it is at least 3 shifts for a manoeuvre, further shifts only serve to make it sticky; sticky meaning that it will stay until the end of the scene even if you tag it. You cannot add further tags.

Correction:  Evocation can't make sticky aspects.  It can add duration on a point of power for one exchange.

[CMEast]

Oo thank you, I've always mis-read that! I sometimes wish the rules were a little simpler and more uniform. I was confused by the Whirlwind spell on YS295 which describes a sticky aspect created with evocation. Perhaps it only means that it lasts an extra exchange.

[DFJunkie]

A minor correction to maneuvers placing an aspect on a scene: the difficulty varies, and there is no hard floor.

P. 207:
"Against the environment, the maneuver is performed as a simple action against a fixed difficulty set by the GM, which is usually very context-dependent.  For instance, knocking over a table in a bar would be Average, but finding cover in a barren desert could be Great or more..."

[austinmonster]

There are a few things that could have made the book better, if you ask me.   A chart that lays out what you need for different types of manuvers would have been great.  I added a chart to the back page of mine that shows what skills you can use to attack, what skills defend, and what skills you base your stress track on for phsical/mental/social conflicts. 

I think I'll stick with the sort of "running fast and loose" with the rules.  Afterall, that's the spirit they were written in if you ask me.  They were written to simulate the crazy stuff that goes on in Jim Butcher's books, right?  There are times when harry pulls off stunts that would be VERY hard/impossible to do with the books... and all I can say there is "wow, the GM must value cool over rules"  and I have zero problem with that.

[JosephKell]

Correction:  Evocation can't make sticky aspects.  It can add duration on a point of power for one exchange.

This is right, but I can't help but feel it is a mistake?

Edit:  Mind Fog (YS 299) mentions "one shift to make the effect 'sticky,'" for whatever that is worth.

Back to not edited in stuff...

As an aside, even for Evocation maneuvers the minimum shifts isn't always 3 (just the default is 3).  And honestly, a lot of this just feels like "use your judgement."  If it is Athletics or Might 1 to overturn a table, I can see a 1 shift air or spirit (force) maneuver doing the same thing.  Although I can't imagine why a person would subject him or herself to 1 mental stress to just use their brain instead of their arm muscles (maybe to give cover to someone zones away?).

[greycouncilmember]

I'm going to drudge this up because it relates even though I've asked about it previously.  If it's a temporary aspect on a willing person do you still have to count it as a minimum 3 for success as evocation?  in another post I wanted to create a blessing via thaumaturgy which started out a min 3 cost, but ended up with a min cost of 1.  I think that's probably a matter of opinion and circumstance but I just want to understand how this works. 

This is the post I am talking about.

I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.

[austinmonster]

This is a good point!

Were you trying to set up said blessing with thaumaturgy, or with evocation?  I think that's the main linchpin in deciding what answer to give you.

[greycouncilmember]

This is a good point!

Were you trying to set up said blessing with thaumaturgy, or with evocation?  I think that's the main linchpin in deciding what answer to give you.

my original intention was and still is to set this up via thaumaturgy before combat.  I guess I wanted to know the cost via evocation during combat to apply that same temporary aspect.  3+duration?  It would go away as soon as it's used regardless of duration. 

[JosephKell]

I'm going to drudge this up because it relates even though I've asked about it previously.  If it's a temporary aspect on a willing person do you still have to count it as a minimum 3 for success as evocation?  in another post I wanted to create a blessing via thaumaturgy which started out a min 3 cost, but ended up with a min cost of 1.  I think that's probably a matter of opinion and circumstance but I just want to understand how this works. 

This is the post I am talking about.

The book specifically says when the person invoking is trying to get an advantage (I read this as "combat advantage to hurt/hinder") then the guy being invoked on gets the fate point.

So you can't invoke your buddy to use him as a human step stool AND give him the fate point.

[greycouncilmember]

The book specifically says when the person invoking is trying to get an advantage (I read this as "combat advantage to hurt/hinder") then the guy being invoked on gets the fate point.

So you can't invoke your buddy to use him as a human step stool AND give him the fate point.

I was just looking to give him a one time +2 bonus to a check of some kind through a temporary aspect, not a fate point on either side.  it's just a bit of momentary luck.