Potions, Brewing, And strength caps

[ashern]

Hey guys, I've got a character for my up to the waist game who only has thaumaturgy, and is a potion specialist.  I let her take refinements, so I'm looking at +2 strength and +1 frequency, and a +2 strength focus item for a character that has a base lore of 4, a nice workshop, and an appropriate aspect or two.

I recall reading that enchanted items have a peak or twice the caster's lore, my question is if that applies to potions as well, if they're being boosted by fate points.  As it is, with a single tag, brewing it in her spiffy focus cauldron, this character could theoretically produce a ten shift potion with two doses, for a single enchanted item slot.

(let me know if my math is wrong, if it is I need to tell the player to change what is on their sheet).

Here's the question, would burning fate points allow the potion to get this strong, or possibly higher?  I'm not really worried about it, the player isn't a powergamer, but I was just wondering.

Also, to my understanding, if I was to take that ten shift effect, and use it for say a... dragonbreath potion (the character has a dragon thing going on, besides, it's a fantasy staple!), my math works out that it could be used as a weapon 8 attack, over a whole zone, targeted with whatever skill seems appropriate.  Did I do that right?

[Belial666]

Yes, you are right. Potion strength can be increased with Tags and Invokes while brewing them or on the fly (while using them). Essentially, they are stored spells.

[ashern]

Also, I was rereading the chapter and it says that potions could replicate just about any appropriate evocation or thaumaturgy effect.  I suppose this means that you could have a "potion of invisibility", with a strong veil effect with a scene length duration (similar to the one in fool moon, but with a straight veil).  I'm just trying to think of ideas for the player, there's a decent number of potion slots available, and I was wanting to know what I can be expecting.

[CMEast]

Invisibility potions are definitely possible. Other useful potions are defensive blocks (stone skin/lizard hide or whatever), offensive blocks (paralysing potions, glue bags, flash bangs and so forth), tracking potions (just add blood or hair and then drink it, or treat it like a compass, or a scrying pool).

[ironchicken]

Also remember potions means any single use item and not just things you drink. My character is going to have some dried blackberries that you cast into a zone and they then grow into brambles that then break down into ectoplasm at the end of the scene (an area block/grapple).

There is a lot of flexibility in potions but the disadvantage is being prepared.

Oh and if you follow the stories you can't drink more than one in any scene or they react in your stomach.

[ashern]

CMeast- great examples!  I'll have to go back and glance at the draconomicon for some ideas, so I can stat out stuff and have it ready to go for the player.

ironchicken- good point, non liquid one use items are an excellent point.  Somehow I don't think too many enemies could run away from a nice enchanted thornbush like that. 

[mostlyawake]

I'd like to add a bunch of questions to this:

How does increased frequency (from specialization) work with "potions are any one-shot item"?  One of my players has 6 potion slots and a total frequency of 3 (+2 from specializations). Does he have 6 potions each usable once or 6 potions each usable 3 times?

Did we decide if potions have the same cap as other enchanted items (lore x 2)?  How does specialties/focus items that increase lore work with this?  That same character has lore 5, +3 strength, for an effective starting strength of 8. Assuming he does the normal skill maneuver/tag bit, he can easily drive this up.  Is his potion making capped at 10 (twice his lore), 16 (twice his effective strength), or not at all?

Say he wants to make money selling potions that temporarily offer "male enhancements" or "boob job in a can".  The best I can figure out is to use it as conjuring or transformation.  (conjuring would produce fake results, ecto-peen, but could be made very realistic by adding to the complexity, real would be a true, albeit temporary, transformation, grey area of the laws and all).  Now, as this isn't complete or permanent transformation, I don't see it needing to have a complexity of 26 or whatever.  But, what should it be?  4 to cover the stress boxes, (assuming no resistance to get past), and then what? Is "male enhancement" an aspect, a mild consequence (even though it's positive?), or what?

Someone mentioned "powered by fate points".  I read somewhere else that to give yourself a power, even temporarily, should cost over 26 complexity (because of full transformation), but the book seems to indicate that you could have a lower cost but have the effect powered by fate points equal to the refresh cost of the power.  If we went that way (paying, say, 2 fate points to gain inhuman strength for a scene), what would the potion cost be?

What's the cost for just a base skill increase?  Say, +4 to athletics for a scene?  Some of the examples in the books seem to do this, but for specific things (jumping to overcome barriers, ect).  If this is possible, then could you make a potion just to increase your might? How is this different, cost-wise and effect-wise, than gaining, say, supernatural strength (as a temporary power)?

For example, the character made a potion of see lies.  Basically, a bonus to empathy for a scene towards detecting lies.  He doesn't want it just as an aspect (+2 once for free, then costing a fate point each time to invoke), but is trying to get a scene-length bonus. Is this possible? What should the cost be?

sorry for all the questions.  We just started playing and complexity of some spells/potions is a huge discussion for us right now.

[Belial666]

Frequency works on potions normally - it says so in the book. So, if you have frequency, you brew a potion for an effect and instead of needing to drink all of it to gain the effect, you could drink half of it and save the other half for later (2 uses). Or if you have lots of frequency, you can spread a potion five ways and it still works.

[ashern]

Alrighty, consulting the book (YS 280), gives me the impression that you can get extra uses.  It specifically states that you normally can't exchange the extra strength bonus on an item for extra uses... but that you can for potions.  Which leaves me slightly confused as well.  I'd tend to allow multiple "dosings" of a particular potion.  Several doses of RC anti venom?  Sure, that makes sense.  However, I wouldn't allow it to have multiple effects in the same slot, that seems to go against the intention of keeping this all simple and neat.

As for the strength, personally I have no clue about the cap calculations that you're putting up.  Though I'd be tempted to say that 16 would be the absolute cap I'd allow.  Although I'd have to wonder where they're getting all the fate points to dump into that potion...


Edit: Ninja'd on frequency.

[mostlyawake]

Frequency works on potions normally - it says so in the book.

Yup, and it states rather emphatically that "a given potion may only be used once, period" (YS280)... which confused some of our players as they thought they were being conflicting information from the book.  Basically, it should read, "period, unless you've increased the frequency or dedicated more slots.."

[mostlyawake]

all the fate points to dump into that potion...

No fate points, just making a lot of skill rolls for declarations.  To go from 8 to 16, you just need 4 skill rolls that each provide a free taggable aspect , so Discipline (intently focused), Contacts (white court vampire blood vial), ect could work.

[Belial666]

Yeah, you can use many of the tricks that work for ritual magic. I compiled them in a guide about a week ago. A ritualist wizard could get a ritual power of 40+ with them.

[ashern]

Ahh, good call on the declarations and stuff, hadn't thought about that.  Sounds like a solid plan, though if one of my players wanted to do that, I would demand that they do that in session during free time, and not that they could "assume that they had done all of that" for any generic pregen potions.  I'm fine with you having a bunch of potions laying around, but if you want a special one, it needs to be part of the story.  (at least in my opinion)

           

[mostlyawake]

  I'm fine with you having a bunch of potions laying around, but if you want a special one, it needs to be part of the story.  (at least in my opinion)

           

I limit the "i just happen to have the perfect thing for this!" potions to the regular strength of (lore + specialty + extra slot bonus + any invoked aspects.) Which can honestly still push to 12 or so.  But yeah declarations only work if you're making it in game... my players have already made some stuff like this.

[Belial666]

One hedge witch with:

[-2] Ritual: crafting
[-3] Refinement 3x
Lore 4 and Conviction 4

Can have the following:
1 book of shadows (crafting focus strength +4, frequency +2)
1 ring of blasting, weapon 8, 3 uses/session, use conviction to aim (can use mental stress for extra uses)
1 herbal talisman of invisibility, 3 uses. This is actually a "potion" that is worn, not drunk. Base strength 8 veil that lasts a day, usually with 1 invoke when brewed, 1 invoke when used for strength 12.
1 potion of invulnerability, 3 uses. As above for strength, block instead of veil.
1 potion of awareness, 3 uses. As above, perception instead of veil.

So she runs around with veil 12, block 12, perception 12 all day long and if there's danger she shoots people in the back with a weapon 8 boomstick (their defense is mediocre cause they'll always be surprised)

Worse yet, she can apply that defense to two other people in addition to herself.