What is and isn't a Lawbreaker?

[Thrythlind]

I have a tea mistress in a game...that's going to be mostly potions (teas held in thermoses) and ceremonies

my general feeling is the sort of magic is very subtle and prodding, but some of the sort of magics I'd use in other games seem to tread close to the fourth law...


okay, the lust potion is not a fourth law breaker....nor is the sleep spell Harry used on Murphy in Grave Peril....

but the "don't touch" Molly put on her friends is....ugly....

so let's see some of what I'd expect:

Tea Ceremony is performed when things are being negotiated...so perhaps a sense of focus or clarity...would that just be sharpening the senses rather than messing with minds....also, would a sense of peace be accomplished by inducing a relaxed state...like say you get from a mild sedative

an encouragement rather than an outright "You WILL do this"?

Is that the border?

A spell that encourages the participants of the ceremony to be calm, but doesn't force it is good, but one which makes it impossible for them to behave violently is bad?

[JosephKell]

Dresden's sleep spell was a temporary aspect via maneuver (few shifts of power).  Same for Bob's "Love" Potion.

Molly's "Stop!  Can't touch this [drugs]!" was a mental consequence (severe or extreme).

That is the biggest difference.

A general "soothing" mind fog is not really mind tampering.  You are just poking part of the brain as opposed to "rewiring" it.

[Thrythlind]

ahhh aha

that makes sense...so if you stay away from permanent/long term consequences, you're good

[Deadmanwalking]

ahhh aha

that makes sense...so if you stay away from permanent/long term consequences, you're good

I'd say any Consequences are bad, as are some Aspects via Maneuver, but some are workable, including the idea suggested.

[Stephen]

This is the guidance given to apprentices of Psychomancy/Neuromancy

Any use of magic to invade the mind of another human is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Thoughts and Beliefs is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Desires and Motivation is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Emotion and Moods is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Memories is unlawful.

However the use of magic to enter the mind of a willing human receipient may be lawful (provided free will isn't altered) and the use of magic to enter the mind of a recently deceased person who may subsequently be revived may be lawful as may the
use of magic to read or affect the perception and/or motor abilities of a person even when free action is compromised.

Magic may also be used to invade the mind of animals.

Perceptual Changes
Magic may be used to affect Vision: Blindness, Imposed Images.
Magic may be used to affect Audition: Deafness, Imposed Sounds.
Magic may be used to affect Touch: Numbness, Imposed Tactile stimulation.
Magic may be used to affect Smell: Absence of Smell, Imposed Smells.
Magic may be used to affect Taste: Tastelessness, Imposed Tastes.
Magic may be used to affect Proprioception: Clumsiness, Imposed Stimulation.
Magic may be used to affect Balance: Loss of Balance, Imposed change of Balance.
Magic may be used to affect Magnetic Sense: Absence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Thermal Sense: Absence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Pressure Sense: Overwhelming, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Magic Energy Sense: Abscence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to minimize Pain but Imposition of Pain may be unlawful.
Magic may be used to affect multiple Senses: Sensory Deprivation but Imposition of  Halluciatory Experience may be unlawful.

Motor Changes
Magic may be used to affect Muscle Tension: Hypertonic (skeletal muscle lock) Hypotonic (flaccid skeletal muscles)
Magic may be used to affect Muscle use: Quadriplegia, Hemiplegia, Limb Weakness,
Magic may be used to affect Ballistic Movements: No Fast Limb Movements.
Magic may be used to affect Controlled Movements: No Precise Limb Movements.
Magic may be used to affect Automatic Motor Movement: Stumble/Fumble, Imposed automatic movements.
Magic may be used to affect Motor Planning: Apraxia (no skilled movements), Imposed skilled movements.
Magic may be used to mentally copy and master motor skills.

Arousal Changes
Magic may be used to affect Sleep/Wake Cycle: Imposed change.
Magic may be used to affect Alertness: Hypervigilant/ , Imposed change.
Magic may be used to affect Attention: Indifference/Fascination, Imposed change.

Hope this is useful
Stephen

[GruffAndTumble]

That's a verycomprehensive list, and yet I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it doesn't cover every situation you might find in your game, and, given how creative players can be, will probably end up directly contradicting itself for a spell or two (or twenty). In general, I'm not a fan of making lists for situations where a case by case judgment is viable--nine times out of ten, good judgment is a better tool than lists.

If the list helps inform your judgment, that's good. But I would recommend you think about what the Laws mean, and what they are, in the context of your game.

[Stephen]

It's not really meant to be comprehensive just give guidance what a mentor might pass on to their apprentice and what might allow Wizards to avoid visits by hostile Wardens. The rules actually imposed aren't that simple for lawbreaking and by Wardens not that clearcut.
Stephen

[Ophidimancer]

Where'd you get that list?

Also I made my Ethics, Wizards, and the laws of Magic to be a big catchall thread for Laws of Magic questions, if you want to add to that?

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Magic used to read or affect human Thoughts and Beliefs is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Desires and Motivation is unlawful.

   That part isn't one hundred percent accurate. Harry's Lust potion didn't break the 4th law on the soul basis that it didn't FORCE you to do anything you weren't already inclined to do, it just gave you a heavy nudge in that direction. So you can affect the desires/motivations/beliefs of other humans just fine, its forcibly dictating their course of action (taking away their free will)that breaks the law. Saying, "You will have sex with the next person you see." is a law breaker, Saying, "You will find the next person you see insanely attractive." is technically legal.
   
   As far as the sleep issue, I don't think a sleep spell falls under mind control at all. Sure sleep is run by the brain (As is everything your body does), but its a physical state. Making someone fall asleep is no more controlling their mind than giving them the hiccups would be.

    Also, the big thing to keep in mind is, the laws only apply to the use of magic on humans. You can technically have as many mindcontrolled(or Zombie, or read the minds of) animals, or if you're brave, other supernaturals as you want and the council wont care(well, they'll care, but is a loophole in the law that you can cling to. Dresden does it all the time). 

[Thrythlind]

also note that Dresden doesn't impose his will on supernaturals either...he just calls them with their names, sometimes breaks bindings on them...

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   This is true, but thats just Dresdens personal schtick. He explicitly states in Storm Front, when Morgan tries to call him on "Enslaving" toot-toot. "You know as well as I do that those Laws Apply to Mortals. Not Fairies." He also mentions that it wouldn't be breaking the first law anyway, since Toot-Toot had a choice.(first page of chapter 7)
   He also uses the same technicality to get away with making zombies in Dead Beat (Since the Zombie he raised wasn't human, it was legal).
   So yes, if they have a choice its not a breach of the fourth law. but if the target isn't human, then hes not protected by the Laws at all (I've mentioned on another thread, my belief is the reason why, is that its committing such a transgression against your own kind that has such an effect on the human psyche, but that borders on UPG).
   

[Synthesse]

Perceptual Changes
Magic may be used to affect Vision: Blindness, Imposed Images.
Magic may be used to affect Audition: Deafness, Imposed Sounds.
Magic may be used to affect Touch: Numbness, Imposed Tactile stimulation.
Magic may be used to affect Smell: Absence of Smell, Imposed Smells.
Magic may be used to affect Taste: Tastelessness, Imposed Tastes.
Magic may be used to affect Proprioception: Clumsiness, Imposed Stimulation.
Magic may be used to affect Balance: Loss of Balance, Imposed change of Balance.
Magic may be used to affect Magnetic Sense: Absence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Thermal Sense: Absence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Pressure Sense: Overwhelming, Imposed change
Magic may be used to affect Magic Energy Sense: Abscence, Imposed change
Magic may be used to minimize Pain but Imposition of Pain may be unlawful.
Magic may be used to affect multiple Senses: Sensory Deprivation but Imposition of  Halluciatory Experience may be unlawful.

Motor Changes
Magic may be used to affect Muscle Tension: Hypertonic (skeletal muscle lock) Hypotonic (flaccid skeletal muscles)
Magic may be used to affect Muscle use: Quadriplegia, Hemiplegia, Limb Weakness,
Magic may be used to affect Ballistic Movements: No Fast Limb Movements.
Magic may be used to affect Controlled Movements: No Precise Limb Movements.
Magic may be used to affect Automatic Motor Movement: Stumble/Fumble, Imposed automatic movements.
Magic may be used to affect Motor Planning: Apraxia (no skilled movements), Imposed skilled movements.
Magic may be used to mentally copy and master motor skills.

Arousal Changes
Magic may be used to affect Sleep/Wake Cycle: Imposed change.
Magic may be used to affect Alertness: Hypervigilant/ , Imposed change.
Magic may be used to affect Attention: Indifference/Fascination, Imposed change.

Hope this is useful
Stephen

I'm confused, is this a list of things that are allowed or disallowed?
I would think that using magic to affect a person's senses is not a violation of the law, since you are not reading their thoughts or removing their free will. The person still has their free will, its just that their senses may not be telling them what they might normally (like a complex veil, or any of the mundane methods to impair someone's senses).

[Stephen]

Hi Ophidimancer

I made the list up after thinking about what lawful actions, if any, a neuromancer might be allowed to do.
Stephen

I'm confused, is this a list of things that are allowed or disallowed?

First, Its not anything official. It represents the guidance and training given to any apprentice neuromancer in my DGRPG about the acts a neuromancer might be allowed to do.
Stephen

I would think that using magic to affect a person's senses is not a violation of the law, since you are not reading their thoughts or removing their free will. The person still has their free will, its just that their senses may not be telling them what they might normally (like a complex veil, or any of the mundane methods to impair someone's senses).

Mostly correct but beware of totally controlling a person's senses in a way that totally constrains their thoughts, feelings or actions, it could lead to lawbreaking or warden induced head removal.
Stephen


Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2010, 02:34:58 AM
Magic used to read or affect human Thoughts and Beliefs is unlawful.
Magic used to read or affect human Desires and Motivation is unlawful.
Nyarlathotep5150 said
Harry's Lust potion didn't break the 4th law on the soul basis that it didn't FORCE you to do anything you weren't already inclined to do, it just gave you a heavy nudge in that direction. So you can affect the desires/motivations/beliefs of other humans just fine, its forcibly dictating their course of action (taking away their free will)that breaks the law. Saying, "You will have sex with the next person you see." is a law breaker, Saying, "You will find the next person you see insanely attractive." is technically legal.

There are two laws a neuromancer must be known by other wizards to always keep, don't invade someone's mind and don't control their will. Other uses of magic may affect areas of the mind without concern about an invasion of mind that a neuromancer must always deal with, so I agree with your example and possibly your point but my post wasn't about mind magic generally, it was about what was safely lawful for neuromancy.

Whether something is 'technically legal' may allow escape from lawbreaking but could still involve a meeting with a warden or might be accepted by a warden but still result in lawbreaking.
Stephen
   
Nyarlathotep5150 said
   As far as the sleep issue, I don't think a sleep spell falls under mind control at all. Sure sleep is run by the brain (As is everything your body does), but its a physical state. Making someone fall asleep is no more controlling their mind than giving them the hiccups would be.

Hey, you are entitled to hold differing beliefs but lets be clear, I said it was lawful for a neuromancer to change this and you aren't disagreeing about that and we agree that sleep is run by the brain.

It may be lawful for wizards to use magic to change human Thoughts, Beliefs, Emotions, Moods, Desires and/or Motivation provided they clearly can't[i/] invade someone's mind and clearly can't[i/] bind their will, but when there is the possibility that these may[i/] occur a warden's visit can be justified.
Stephen

[Bruce Coulson]

Again, we get back to tampering with Free Will.  Emotional Influence falls into a grey area, but as long as the person retains their Free Will, you're probably okay, from a metaphysical standpoint.  If the emotional influence is overwhelming, then you're crossed the line.  This is why the White Council takes a hard line on the matter; it's far too easy to slip from grey to black, all with the best intentions.

Rule of Thumb; adding a Aspect to someone, questionable, risky, but probably 'legal' by metaphysics.  Any sort of Consequences is Black; you've tampered with Free Will.

Supernatural assessment is legal; actually probing their mind for any information, no.  (Since I allow psychics in my campaign, I don't even allow voluntary mind probes via magic; basically, a mundane CAN'T consent to having their mind read via magic, since they don't understand the full ramifications of the action.  Psychics are using a different method which is much more limited, and so the Law doesn't apply to them; not that any Wardens would agree.)

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Rule of Thumb; adding a Aspect to someone, questionable, risky, but probably 'legal' by metaphysics.  Any sort of Consequences is Black; you've tampered with Free Will.

   I totally disagree with that. Adding a consequence might end up being the clue that sets the wardens on you, but it is not a good rule of thumb for what constitutes a breach of the fourth law. There is no good systemic rule of thumb for what is and isn't a breach of the laws (nor should there be). If you describe the spells function in a way that breaches the laws, you're a law breaker, no matter what the systemic effect of that spell is.