How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.

[Stephen]

A proven way around the laws is the use of the

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Black Staff

. So acquire it, the recipe for making it. recreate it or do something similar (e.g. 'scapegoating' - shifting the stain onto someone else).
Stephen

[Wyrdrune]

according to what we saw in

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changes

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what the blackstaff did to ebenezar - that black veins

- it might not be that good idea - to me it seems that there is still a price to pay.

[ballplayer72]

#1: The problem here is that Butcher set up the world with a Creator. With the first law your trying to break his basic rule, "Thou shalt not kill" without consequences. I don't think you can. I'd argue that even when the Wardens kill with a sword it stains their soul, just not in the same way as with magic. The White Council can stop people from killing with magic but not killing without it so they only care about the former, that doesn't mean the latter is any better. Talk to you local religious figure about how you can kill someone and yet not be responsible.

#2: A properly researched, well thought out ritual to transform  a person which takes into account all the consequences for storing their soul/mind/personality and allowing them to transform back at their will probably doesn't stain the soul. Spend a few decades doing the research on that one.

#3: The problem here is "invade". There has been a lot of discussion that if the invasion is voluntary then it might be ok, or if its just looking around. Yea sure, some of those particularly the looking into a voluntary subject might not stain the soul. But its too tempting to do a little tweak while in there, or look at secrets the person has. While in someones head can you resist the temptation to see what they really think of you? Probably not and if you do you just crossed the invasion line. The Council has determined that even defensive mind magic seems to be too close to breaking this law so they don't even teach anything beyond the basics. That seems a bit too far but its so the temptation never exists. To break this one I'd say it has to be 100% voluntary, no coercion, no threats, not even a you need to prove you innocent type of thing, and then only looking and only looking at the specific info they allow. Well if you meet all whose conditions there really isn't a reason to look is there?

#4: Any enthrallment is a stain, this one is clear. You can't make someone do anything, even love potions without negative effects.

#5: The stain only seems to apply to crossing the borders for things with souls. Sue was an abomination, but not a killable offense. Raising an army of zombie bunnies seems to at least tolerated. Again this comes back to the Creator issue. He won't like you bringing back the dead, what Koumari does will noble probably violated the Creator/Universes rules about that.

#6 I don't think the 6th stains the soul at all, its just such a bad idea to go back in time that it has to be stopped. To many actions messing with the past lead to breaking the "thou shalt not kill rule", even if you don't use magic beyond the time travel part. Changing history means someone out there died who didn't before and you were the cause. You could probably go back, veiled, levitating and incorporeal leaving no trace and record events without causing a stain but extreme precautions would need to be taken not to influence anything. Precautions which are probably so difficult as to be impossible.

#7 The 7th has a lot of leeway. Research that never contacts an outsider probably doesn't hurt at all, its just that those who start to research write it down and other people pick up that work with bad consequences.
Dealing with one is just a road to corruption.

Actually the 7th doesnt' have any leeway.   Knowledge about the outsiders is strictly forbidden.   IN any capacity.  Technically harry is breaking the 7th law simply by knowing HWWB's name.

[JosephKell]

Actually the 7th doesnt' have any leeway.   Knowledge about the outsiders is strictly forbidden.   IN any capacity.  Technically harry is breaking the 7th law simply by knowing HWWB's name.

I think "outsider knowledge" is a lot like Jon Doe citizen seeing Top Secret CIA stuff (in this case the CIA are the "outsiders").  It is okay to know the CIA exists, it isn't okay to know what they know.

And HWWB isn't actually its name.  It is more of its "name you want facebook to display."  Sort of like how the CIA is also referred to as "The Company" or "The Agency."

The rule about Outsiders is more that "Don't try to summon them to gain knowledge since your magic probably won't work!  They'll step right through your circle and eat your face, then your neighbor's face, then that cute girl down the street's face...  Don't do it!"

[ballplayer72]

I think "outsider knowledge" is a lot like Jon Doe citizen seeing Top Secret CIA stuff (in this case the CIA are the "outsiders").  It is okay to know the CIA exists, it isn't okay to know what they know.

And HWWB isn't actually its name.  It is more of its "name you want facebook to display."  Sort of like how the CIA is also referred to as "The Company" or "The Agency."

The rule about Outsiders is more that "Don't try to summon them to gain knowledge since your magic probably won't work!  They'll step right through your circle and eat your face, then your neighbor's face, then that cute girl down the street's face...  Don't do it!"

I got the feeling it was as much his name as "mab" is mabs name.    Its what he gives out to people, not his True Name.   

And yes, its ok to know that there is such a thing as Outsiders.  Beyond that though?    Its a Bad Thing.     
Idk i think they would fit in a circle. even do your bidding to an extent (see HWWB being a hired assassin).   And twist you horribly in the process.  Pretty soon youre summoning him and his 14 cousins into the prime material plane to be your servents and then all of a sudden you don't exist anymore and there a massive OUTSIDER Gate on your front lawn and the sky is weeping blood and Cthulu just ate the moon.
The laws seem to make slippery slope arguments a reality instead of a fallacy.   You do this, you do it more, until it snowballs ridiculously out of control and something abjectly horrible happens.

[FutureGameDesigner]

I don't recall wardens directly immobilizing or imprisoning anyone with magic during execution.  They might cut off their spellcasting, but they're bound and hooded by completely mundane means otherwise.

[ballplayer72]

I don't recall wardens directly immobilizing or imprisoning anyone with magic during execution.  They might cut off their spellcasting, but they're bound and hooded by completely mundane means otherwise.

that goes back to the classic test for finding a bad guy  when "bad guy" equals someone who can't stop using their magic.    If they do magic for everything (remember when harry taught molly that magic and power weren't always the answer? this is the same lesson carried over ) they probably can't stop.  Look at anakin skywalker in starwars. Dude just loved using the force. Thought his power made him better etc etc snow balled, then you've got darth vader.


Why use magic when mundane means suffice?

[smoore]

Actually the 7th doesnt' have any leeway.   Knowledge about the outsiders is strictly forbidden.   IN any capacity.  Technically harry is breaking the 7th law simply by knowing HWWB's name.

Did you read the first post?

This thread is dedicated to trying to determine how one can accomplish certain results that would otherwise be possible only through violation of one of the seven Laws of Magic, without actually "staining" your soul.

Knowing HWWB would in no way stain you but could be a violation. The 7ths has lots of leeway you can learn a lot of things about the Outsiders that would get you killed by the Council but wouldn't stain you.

[ballplayer72]

Did you read the first post?

Knowing HWWB would in no way stain you but could be a violation. The 7ths has lots of leeway you can learn a lot of things about the Outsiders that would get you killed by the Council but wouldn't stain you.

Unless its knowledge that has a mind of its own.  That DESIRES to be used.  That tempts.    Theres got to be a damn good reason for them to kill people for simply knowing something about the Outsiders.  And not anything important either.      The same kind of reason all the other laws are insta death penalties (for the most part).  Because someone who does it is nigh on irredeemable and 9.999999999/10 times will do something just awful eventually.