Holy Stuff

[ryanroyce]

How, exactly, does one attack with "holy stuff" other than holy water?  Does my character present his holy symbol and attack with his Conviction?  If so, then what skill opposes it?  If not, then how else can someone "weaponize" holy stuff?  Do I have to hit the vampire over the head with a giant crucifix or attach some industrial strength rosaries to a stick and wield it like a flail?  WTF, mate? 

Last night, I was play-testing a Champion of God that my friend will be using at an upcoming convention and I attempted to 'attack' a RCV with his crucifix backed up by Conviction (as the skill that 'measures' one's faith), but the GM called shenanigans.  He was right, as far as we could tell, but it still left us scratching our heads as to how "holy stuff" can be used as a weapon.   The fact that holy stuff isn't in the index doesn't help matters.

For another example, a different character I'm playing has a sword that is as much a symbol of his faith as Harry's silver pentacle is his symbol.  If my guy used the sword against something with the Catch (holy stuff), would it bypass that Catch?  Does he need to roll Conviction to put a maneuver on the sword first? We'd greatly appreciate some input from the Devs if they have the time.

[toturi]

For another example, a different character I'm playing has a sword that is as much a symbol of his faith as Harry's silver pentacle is his symbol.  If my guy used the sword against something with the Catch (holy stuff), would it bypass that Catch?  Does he need to roll Conviction to put a maneuver on the sword first? We'd greatly appreciate some input from the Devs if they have the time.

Why can you punch someone's face in with a crucifix? Hold it between your knuckles like a knuckle duster. A big heavy old school Bible can be used to lay the smackdown on anyone (gamers have long practiced the fine art of smacking someone in the face with a heavy rule book, so adapt by changing the instrument).

See old Chinese kung fu movies on how to use rosaries as weapons (especially those that feature a Shaolin monk as the hero).

[Archmage_Cowl]

How, exactly, does one attack with "holy stuff" other than holy water?  Does my character present his holy symbol and attack with his Conviction?  If so, then what skill opposes it?  If not, then how else can someone "weaponize" holy stuff?  Do I have to hit the vampire over the head with a giant crucifix or attach some industrial strength rosaries to a stick and wield it like a flail?  WTF, mate? 

Weaponizing holy stuff is largely a note of gm decisions (at least it is for me) i have yet to see any real concrete stuff on how it's done but i think that might be a little better as holy stuff and catches vary vastley from creature to creature. Mechanically anytime you wield a creatures catch against it, it functions as a compel on their appropriate aspect, which is almost always their high concept. Other than that you just sorta have to go with your own ideas.

Maybe an example will help. This is how i do it. If a true beliver whips out a cross on a red court vampire and points it at them and the cross starts glowing, that is a symbol of the true belivers faith and the vampire cannot approach them (mechanically defined as a compel on their high concept), though you may want the true beliver to have to spend a fate point but i wouldnt (most of the time). However if the true believer touches the vampire with the cross now that is way different. Mechanically i would stat that as an attack on the vampire using weapons with the cross automatically satisfying the catch and since red court are weak to holy stuff and it burns them, say the cross is a weapon 2 in this circumstance (about as dangerous as a longsword, or gun, to a person)

now same circumstance but a black court vampire instead. If the true believer holds the cross up so the vampire cant come near i would treat that as a compel on the vampire's high concept and as an attack (as black court are shown to be even more vunerable) so i would treat it as a conviction attack that satisfys the catch but the attack probably doesnt have a weapon value. Now if the true believer tries to hit the vampire with the cross i would again treat it as an attack with the cross using weapons, and it satisys the catch but the cross is probably a weapon 4 or 5 here (as blampires are way more vunerable to faith)

Thats how i've been ruling it. I'm not entirely sure thats right but it's worked so far. Hope that helps some

[ballplayer72]

How, exactly, does one attack with "holy stuff" other than holy water?  Does my character present his holy symbol and attack with his Conviction?  If so, then what skill opposes it?  If not, then how else can someone "weaponize" holy stuff?  Do I have to hit the vampire over the head with a giant crucifix or attach some industrial strength rosaries to a stick and wield it like a flail?  WTF, mate? 

Last night, I was play-testing a Champion of God that my friend will be using at an upcoming convention and I attempted to 'attack' a RCV with his crucifix backed up by Conviction (as the skill that 'measures' one's faith), but the GM called shenanigans.  He was right, as far as we could tell, but it still left us scratching our heads as to how "holy stuff" can be used as a weapon.   The fact that holy stuff isn't in the index doesn't help matters.

For another example, a different character I'm playing has a sword that is as much a symbol of his faith as Harry's silver pentacle is his symbol.  If my guy used the sword against something with the Catch (holy stuff), would it bypass that Catch?  Does he need to roll Conviction to put a maneuver on the sword first? We'd greatly appreciate some input from the Devs if they have the time.

How about this:


Take your sword Idea for instance.   Lets say that that sword (gonna go with christian mythos) is forged of metal gathered from a large number of iron crosses that were blessed by Saint XYZ.   Now Saint XYZ also forged the sword himself after fasting on Mount Sinai during a trip to the holy land. The only food or drink he allowed himself was during mass when he took communion.   He quenched the sword in holy water and inscribed the sword with aramaic runes extoling the virtues of god.  It has been wielded by a succession of champions of God throughout the ages and is pretty much its own holy relic, in its own way.  While it doesn't grant any special powers or stunts it is a Holy Item, and thus satisfies the holy stuff catch without any roles.

Would that work?

[Doc Nova]

How, exactly, does one attack with "holy stuff" other than holy water?  Does my character present his holy symbol and attack with his Conviction?  If so, then what skill opposes it?  If not, then how else can someone "weaponize" holy stuff?  Do I have to hit the vampire over the head with a giant crucifix or attach some industrial strength rosaries to a stick and wield it like a flail?  WTF, mate? 

Last night, I was play-testing a Champion of God that my friend will be using at an upcoming convention and I attempted to 'attack' a RCV with his crucifix backed up by Conviction (as the skill that 'measures' one's faith), but the GM called shenanigans.  He was right, as far as we could tell, but it still left us scratching our heads as to how "holy stuff" can be used as a weapon.   The fact that holy stuff isn't in the index doesn't help matters.

For another example, a different character I'm playing has a sword that is as much a symbol of his faith as Harry's silver pentacle is his symbol.  If my guy used the sword against something with the Catch (holy stuff), would it bypass that Catch?  Does he need to roll Conviction to put a maneuver on the sword first? We'd greatly appreciate some input from the Devs if they have the time.

Personally, for the first part of your querry, I'd allow a Conviction attack, treating the crucifix as weapon:0, while fully satisfying the Catch.  The vamp would have normal defenses only and would take 1 stress per point of difference, as per usual.  I'd even allow the player to help me determine whether it was physical (burns appearing on the vamp's body), mental (terrifying  and subduing the vamp), or social (humiliating the vamp in front of it's lackies).  If you went so far as to whack the vamp with a crucifix, I'd probably treat it as a standard weapon:2 type of attack, but only in the case of beasts with "holy stuff" as a wealness...this would not transfer to a mortal thug.

ANd yes, as far as I can tell from your detailing and the rules on Catches, as I understand them, your sword would satisfy "holy stuff" Catches.  Look out vampires!

[Deadmanwalking]

See, I'd make you bless something actually used as a weapon to get the Catch usage...but I allow anyone with True Faith powers (and only such people) to bless stuff pretty easily and readily (like, as an action in combat, if they want).

Now, if you want to be able to attack with Conviction (as opposed to a combat skill) that's definitely a power of it's own (though one I'd likely allow), or a Fate Point use on Guide My Hand.

[luminos]

See, I'd make you bless something actually used as a weapon to get the Catch usage...but I allow anyone with True Faith powers (and only such people) to bless stuff pretty easily and readily (like, as an action in combat, if they want).

Now, if you want to be able to attack with Conviction (as opposed to a combat skill) that's definitely a power of it's own (though one I'd likely allow), or a Fate Point use on Guide My Hand.

...Except that Guide My Hand doesn't work with attacks or maneuvers  . 

The way I'd handle it is allow anything imbued with the power of faith, being wielded by the faithful, allows that person to satisfy holy catches with whatever attacks they make, as long as they are holding this item in proximity to the target.  Letting people with True Faith powers bless things like swords also works pretty well.  If the person doesn't have the True Believer template, but still has a powerful faith in something as part of their aspects (Harry's aspect of his mothers silver pentacle fills this role for him) I'd still let them satisfy or compel holy catches by invoking that aspect.

[rickayelm]

I just got done reading a book called Frost Moon, in this book the main character has tattoos of crosses on each finger of her hand so that she can punch vampires with a holy object. Would such a tactic work in dfrpg.

[Doc Nova]

Just tattooing your fingers wouldn't work.  You have to have the faith behind it.  A cross, on its own, isn't all that potent for Harry, but his mother's pentagram has similar "faith-like" power for him.  Now, if you had the Holy Touch power, then certainly, the cross tattoos would just be description.  Or, if you had an aspect that you could invoke (like Ham-Fisted Holy Roller), then okay...but the tattoos would still only be narrative fluff.

At least that's my take on it.

[ryanroyce]

See, I'd make you bless something actually used as a weapon to get the Catch usage...but I allow anyone with True Faith powers (and only such people) to bless stuff pretty easily and readily (like, as an action in combat, if they want).

 So, in your game, my mortal swordsman would need to have someone else with True Faith 'bless' his weapon first?  His own faith would be immaterial?  Or could he do it himself, so long as he wasn't in combat or otherwise doing it on-the-fly?  It's also an Aspect, if that matters.

Now, if you want to be able to attack with Conviction (as opposed to a combat skill) that's definitely a power of it's own (though one I'd likely allow), or a Fate Point use on Guide My Hand.

 Agreed, though I think it would more accurately be a new Stunt for Conviction, since it is explicitly adding a new Trapping to that skill.  Opposed by Discipline, you think?

[luminos]

If its an aspect, you can might be able to invoke that aspect to get a temporary Holy effect.  The problem is that you don't want to start mimicking the effects of the True Believer template, or you end up making True Believer powers (in this case, Holy Touch) worthless.

Attacking the physical stress track with conviction is definitely a power, not a stunt, because its something that can't be done without some mystical mojo of some sort.

[ryanroyce]

If its an aspect, you can might be able to invoke that aspect to get a temporary Holy effect.  The problem is that you don't want to start mimicking the effects of the True Believer template, or you end up making True Believer powers (in this case, Holy Touch) worthless.

 Holy Touch is valuable because it is ever-present and cannot be removed from the character.  Mere "Holy Stuff" can be disarmed, left behind or simply inconvenient (like holy water balloons).  Holy Touch is also, arguably, passive in its effect; if a Red touches someone with Holy Touch like whats-her-name touched Michael in Grave Peril, then they could take 1 physical stress from that contact.

Attacking the physical stress track with conviction is definitely a power, not a stunt, because its something that can't be done without some mystical mojo of some sort.

 Sorry, I meant to say that such a stunt could only be used against a creature whose HC made them vulnerable to holy stuff (i.e., red/black vamps, ghouls, demons, etc).  Didn't mean to imply that it could also attack a mortal or fae or something.

[luminos]

Holy Touch is valuable because it is ever-present and cannot be removed from the character.  Mere "Holy Stuff" can be disarmed, left behind or simply inconvenient (like holy water balloons).  Holy Touch is also, arguably, passive in its effect; if a Red touches someone with Holy Touch like whats-her-name touched Michael in Grave Peril, then they could take 1 physical stress from that contact.

Sure, its a passive ability, meaning they don't have to pay fate points (beyond the 1 fate point lost from refresh) to use it.  Thats why I'd say that not having a True Faith template would require you to invoke an aspect to get blessed weapons.  It would be easier to hand wave it for someone with a True Believer template but not Holy Touch, because thats what they've devoted their character to.  Having other characters just be able to do it without cost just makes it a cheap trick, and I'd really resent it if I played a True Believer in a campaign where everyone could do it without paying anything for it.  Maybe you don't have True Believer's in your group, so maybe you can convince your GM to house rule blessed weapons for people who have faith aspects.

Sorry, I meant to say that such a stunt could only be used against a creature whose HC made them vulnerable to holy stuff (i.e., red/black vamps, ghouls, demons, etc).  Didn't mean to imply that it could also attack a mortal or fae or something.

This... still sounds like a supernatural power.

[Doc Nova]

I'd have to agree with luminos on this...as well.  Getting the active effects of a power someone else shed refresh for, without even an aspect to back it up, would really take away from the value of the initial power.  And, truthfully, if the character's faith is that potent to begin with, that should definitely be highlighted, in some way, through one of their seven character aspects.  It could even come from their Trouble (Faith Binds), but it should have more presence foe the character than just (and I am not meaning you did this, only this should be avoided):  I should get this because I say my character is faithful!

That would be a dangerous precedent to set, as it could lead to all sorts of abuses in the game.  Of course, also as luminos mentioned, if that's how your game rolls, then so be it!  Have a grand time and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  Personally, however, it would not fly in my game without some additional requirement behind it (refresh or fate point cost).

[Belial666]

It depends on how the catch is priced.

A -2 Holy Stuff means only a few people have it (-1) and it is researchable (-1). This means that common holy stuff that anyone could get (crosses, holy water, a bible) do not work - only real faith powers and blessed items work. Tentacled Horrors and Uber-Ghouls have this.

A -3 Holy Stuff means it is easy to get (-2) and is researchable (-1). This means that common holy stuff do work but you have to research it to know it - don't look it up in the book and assume you know it. Creatures most people wouldn't recognize such as Red Court vampires and lesser Demons fall in this category.

A -4 Holy Stuff means it is easy to get (-2) and everyone knows or can find out about it (-2). Black Court vampires and easy-to-recognize demons should have that.


As for the attack itself, depends on how you use them and on quantity. A crossbow whose bolts are drenched with Holy Oil is holy stuff, weapon 2. A shotgun shooting blessed silver and holy ground might be weapon 3. A cross you pick up and whack vampires with would be weapon 2 if it is as large as a baseball bat, weapon 1 if it is as big as a knife and weapon 0 if it is smaller. A small splash of holy water would be weapon 0. A small baloon filled with holy water would be weapon 1-2. A bucket holding a gallon of holy water might be weapon 3-4.