Author Topic: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult  (Read 9038 times)

Offline Paynesgrey

  • Bartender
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12131
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 08:27:46 PM »
Why stop with just a lawyer when you can have a whole law firm?

http://www.cityofangel.com/characters/wolframHart.html

Offline snowbank

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1367
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 10:12:33 PM »
As far as the character, without having to go look it up, I think Sookie refers to him as demon.  And I'm just being lazy in not wanting to reach over and pull out my Kindle to search.


Star, I join you in laziness on the cabana, ordering margaritas from the pool boy. I wasn't interested enough to look either.

 8)


PG, that firm is TOO EBIL.  >:(
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 10:15:03 PM by snowbound »
ALIEN SPACE BATS!!!!!!!!

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2010, 12:39:04 AM »
I think the reason why a major supernatural power would need a lawyer is pretty much the same as why a major mundane CEO would need a lawyer; specialised technical knowledge of different complexities in different expert fields.

I don't see any inherent reason why Dark Lord Random Example who is a thousand years old and has spent most of that time studying dark magic is necessarily going to have the time or the temperament to be a legal whiz.
The issue I'm struggling with is not whether that knowledge would be easily expected for any entity out there.

The point is, take the DF for example: supernatural law isn't complex enough to require specializing in that knowledge. There's not a lot of fine print, legalize, obscure rules and so on to make it necessary. The political systems are easy enough to grok for the entities inside of them, and the rules are spelled out clearly in the Unseelie Accords to address individuals between organizations. The various organizations themselves work on fairly simplistic rules.

But making them overly complex would be... unsatisfying for me. After all, I'd rather the supernatural world manage to get by without needing a lawyer to do their business, but that such an expertise would be useful for some. Sort of like having the guy on your team who knows that if you tell a pirate "Parlay", they won't immediately stab you. ;) Or, if you're a mortal and you want to make a deal with a faerie, someone who knows how to phrase the deal without getting in over a barrel. The real benefit is for those outside of the system: mortals, entities without a boss and lack the power to be recognized as a Power.

Ultimately it's the difference between having to hire an accountant to do your taxes and handle your books versus asking a guy who knows cars very well to help you get a better deal on buying a new car.

The way I see it right now, this character is not a member of an Established Profession. There is not the Occult Bar Association. It's more like someone who has carved a niche out of playing the systems of the bigger, nastier things. So the issue for me is finding a way where the rules/laws are not too complex, but also there existing a useful place within that system that someone who knows all the rules could benefit as a consultant/negotiator/specialist.

I suppose one way to reconcile a simpler legal system would also be that politics are just as important as the letter of the law. And a character who knows not just how the rules work, but the why's (i.e. knowing who is the enemy of who in the White Court) could be just as useful if not moreso.

There's also the issue that, if such an individual has the knowledge of faerie loopholes, has his finger on the political landscapes of the various organizations, and is a small fry, why he would be allowed to live. That sort of knowledge is inherently dangerous. That and, as I start to grasp this, this amount of knowledge has power in and of itself, enough power that I am actually reluctant to hand the character. He's supposed to be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, a non-threat, but political knowledge speaks of some significant resources and the capacity to take advantage of them.

Offline Nickeris86

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2010, 04:19:41 PM »
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.

the best way that i can think of it working out is that the character works for a law firm that is more like the united nations of the supernatural for whatever city or country it takes place in. the firm is made up of being from every major power out there, but they swear loyalty to the firm and its ideals of neutrality, magically swearing it by their true name so it can't be broken or something like that. the possibilities are nearly endless for what could transpire.

watch law and order maybe that will give you some ideas.
In the darkest hour i shall be there.

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 05:06:35 PM »
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.
DF is just easiest to use as examples here because everyone here is familiar with it. I could be using parallels to the Anita Blake universe.

Quote
the best way that i can think of it working out is that the character works for a law firm that is more like the united nations of the supernatural for whatever city or country it takes place in. the firm is made up of being from every major power out there, but they swear loyalty to the firm and its ideals of neutrality, magically swearing it by their true name so it can't be broken or something like that. the possibilities are nearly endless for what could transpire
In all honesty, a law firm is not what I'm looking for. The whole point is that this character is just a lone scholar who ends up getting dragged into big messes and has to try and use his knowledge to just get out alive, as opposed to kicking ass. And that whole part of being alone and often representing those outside of the powers is what has things so dangerous. This character typically keeps his head down, tries to appear out of notice and then he gets dragged into the middle of things.

A good example. This plot came to mind while doing the laundry:

A hitman (or spy, or whathaveyou) has unbeknown to him (and possibly his employer) assassinated a vampire. (Or likely just pissed it off by not succeeding in killing it). Now the hitman is on the run. He makes calls, and one of his contacts sends him to this lawyer as someone "who will know what to do". When he gets there, he begins talking, and the vampires show up. As they escape, the Hitman will now not let the lawyer go, because the Hitman thinks the guy can help him. Which he can, but of course the main character does not want to.

Part of the fun of this is to play with the "Kicking monster ass" genre, but the main character not only takes no part in the monster ass kicking, to have him hide/take cover during some of those asskickings.

(If you've seen the Zeppo episode of Buffy, or perhaps Diez's character in Knight and Day, you might see where I'm coming from with this character).

Offline The Corvidian

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 987
  • I like crows and ravens.
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2010, 07:43:39 PM »
Ever read Wolff & Byrd?
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Converse to Clarke's 3rd Law: Sufficently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2010, 09:59:50 PM »
No, not before. Although looking at the covers on Amazon, the tone looks humorous rather than serious.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 01:32:33 AM by Rechan »

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2010, 01:28:07 AM »
Delete.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 05:48:54 PM by Rechan »

Offline jeno

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1357
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2010, 03:54:55 AM »
psst, I'd lock that soon if I were you. Can't sell things that have already been posted on the web.
You think you know how this story is going to end, but you don't. -Christopher Moore

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. -Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2010, 04:40:55 AM »
psst, I'd lock that soon if I were you. Can't sell things that have already been posted on the web.
Can't I just go back and delete it in a few days?

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2010, 05:05:19 PM »
Can't I just go back and delete it in a few days?

If you trust all the internet archiving services on the entire planet, and are willing to lie to any publisher who takes an interest in it, yes.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Rechan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2010, 05:54:05 PM »
Well there, it's removed.

Although I think the issue is silly. I've been published before and the publisher knew that I had posted the stories online and still ran the stories.

Offline Apocrypha

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 454
  • As seen on tv
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2010, 06:25:24 PM »
That really depends on what kind of stories they were.  And who published you.
I am not a narcissist. I humbly accept the fact that I'm extremely good looking, smart, and better than you.

City Of Heroes:  @Heathen Cross

Offline MoSeS

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2380
  • Take two tablets and call me in the morning.
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2010, 02:03:02 PM »
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.

I know you already said your using DF as an example so that others here can relate, but it really isn't a good basis for comparison because most the angles you are exploring are already coverd by multiple characters in DF. i.e. Bob gives "legal" advice, McCoy reprensented Harry when he first used black magic, Lea protects Harry from other certain magical deals because he belongs(did) to her, etc.

Same goes for comparing any supernatural series. They usually cover the politics and lawyering in different ways.

I agree with Nickeris, I think you would need to create a new world where the lawyer character could function.

My question is, earlier you said the lawyer character would be a side-kick type character, but whose perspectiven will the story be told from? Omniscient narrator, first person (main character badass) or first person side-kick, or Second-person.  :P j/k I know you can't tell a story from second person perspective. And third person is pretty much the same as a narrator.

Offline Gruud

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2010, 02:12:54 PM »
Have you considered maybe using a bookseller, or similar?

That would give you plausible reasons for the character to know so much about such an obscure subject, and could give you various scenes where the main characters have to go off to see "old what's his name".

Who knows maybe even drag him/her out for the occasional field consultation.

Just a thought, as it seems this path would be less rigorous that the whole "legal" way of dealing with it.

Or, showing my age, do you recall a character from the old series "Bewitched" named Dr. Bombay?

Ostensibly a medical/witch doctor, he was the guy they trotted out whenever they needed to explain some obscure magical rule or what have you.

Patterned after the absent minded older chap who'd taveled the length and breadth of the British Empire, he'd picked up a load of knowledge along the way.

Unless you're just marrried to the lawyer angle, of coursew.