Spell Compendium

[luminos]

I don't think zone of truth is lawbreaker as written.  It doesn't force anyone to do anything, it just makes it so that weak lies more noticeable.  A block is not forcing.  It doesn't change the other persons actions any one bit.  It simply effects the external results of those actions.  Also, the rain ward is brilliant.  Completely unintuitive, and doesn't seem to have much practical effect, but then I realize what it means for a magic user dealing with the thresholding nature of running water, and it makes me smile.

[Tush Hog]

As written it would violate the laws.
But....you could avoid that I think if you altered it to instead monitor their vital signs and instead give you
a bonus to detect deceit. Turn it into a 'Magical Lie Detector' instead.

Just my $0.02

This is how I see the spell: someone wanting to lie to you would roll their Deceit vs your Empathy. If  they are successful you believe them. If they fail, you detect the lie - they still told the lie, just not well enough to convince you.

 That is where the block comes in. It makes it more difficult for them to tell a lie that you can't detect. Whether it makes them develop nervous tics or just helps amplify them for your detection - that is just flavor you can come up with to suit your situation.

Edit: luminos beat me to it he explained it better than I did, too!

[GruffAndTumble]

Okay, I see where the confusion came in. A Block prevents an action from succeeding, by the rules, which is where you're coming from. Some of us, or at least me, internally processed that as preventing it from happening. And while the latter interpretation is one way to look at the application of a Block, particularly Grapples, it is not the only way. My bad.

That being said, in my opinion, all that does is shift it from a 4th law outright violation to a 3rd law grey area. Truth is a complicated issue, often tied up in the beliefs, biases and limited knowledge of the teller. For you to affect lies, and only lies, through your directed will, you will have to already know that the statement is a lie. It's really a chicken and egg question.

Now, if you believe there is a big shiny unadulterated Truth with a capital T somewhere, then it's likely the above does not apply. But Harry has stated that magic needs to be directed by will and focus, and that says to me it needs some kind of "target." Without a big Beacon o' Truth, the target of such a spell is inherently the liar, but you don't know if he is or isn't a liar, or what he is or isn't lying about, before you cast the spell.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly, but it's the best I can do for right now.

[Ophidimancer]

I kinda see it a just projecting out the feeling of someone staring over your shoulder disapprovingly saying, "You better not lie."

[GruffAndTumble]

I kinda see it a just projecting out the feeling of someone staring over your shoulder disapprovingly saying, "You better not lie."

Which brings us back into 4th law territory--imposing your will on someone else. Not the most extreme version, but forcing someone to be intimidated is a 4th law violation.

[ballplayer72]

Okay, I see where the confusion came in. A Block prevents an action from succeeding, by the rules, which is where you're coming from. Some of us, or at least me, internally processed that as preventing it from happening. And while the latter interpretation is one way to look at the application of a Block, particularly Grapples, it is not the only way. My bad.

That being said, in my opinion, all that does is shift it from a 4th law outright violation to a 3rd law grey area. Truth is a complicated issue, often tied up in the beliefs, biases and limited knowledge of the teller. For you to affect lies, and only lies, through your directed will, you will have to already know that the statement is a lie. It's really a chicken and egg question.

Now, if you believe there is a big shiny unadulterated Truth with a capital T somewhere, then it's likely the above does not apply. But Harry has stated that magic needs to be directed by will and focus, and that says to me it needs some kind of "target." Without a big Beacon o' Truth, the target of such a spell is inherently the liar, but you don't know if he is or isn't a liar, or what he is or isn't lying about, before you cast the spell.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly, but it's the best I can do for right now.

Luccio has no problem casting a truth spell on harry in DB.   It doesn't violate any laws.   It simply alerts her to the prescense of the lie.

[Ophidimancer]

Which brings us back into 4th law territory--imposing your will on someone else. Not the most extreme version, but forcing someone to be intimidated is a 4th law violation.

I don't count empathic projections as a 4th Law violations.  Not when you have Lust Potions and Mind Fog spells that aren't outright violations.

Edit: But this is kinda off topic for this thread, maybe it should be moved to another thread?

[blues.soldier]

I really think that Zone of Truth is a Spirit spell in the same kind of way that Elaine's Dodge is an Air spell. The effect is the same, but the spell is really only affecting the wizard's own self. And making it a zone-affecting spell is basically affecting the distance the wizard can "hear" the lies being told.

Also-- I don't believe that this spell would be effective if the lie-teller actually believes the information they are giving out to be true. I don't mean this in a "devoted to their religious convictions" kind of way; I mean it in an "ignorant person actually believing a falsehood to be the truth" kinda way. In that case, it would actually be them telling a piece of information that is not correct; not that their brain registers the fact that they are trying to conceal a lie, no matter how fully they believe that lie. It's a grey are the GM could use if necessary or story-expedient.

[mostlyawake]

If you handled the zone of truth as a lie detector - mechanically giving the caster a bonus to empathy/rapport specifically just to detect dishonesty - no law should be broken.  If you spread this to other willing people, you could use it to ensure honesty in willing parties.  My group handled this as a potion of See Lies, which gave various visual, er, hallucinations, to the caster when someone lied.  One of the components was fairy spit.