Author Topic: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?  (Read 7487 times)

Offline CMEast

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 03:18:00 PM »
Unless you're in the same game as him UltraTroll, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Besides, we're talking an alternate universe here. All of the churches and hospitals that were set up by her might well have been subverted by her ghoulish nature and so they might not be very church-like, in fact they certainly weren't hospital-like either as people mostly went their to die as they didn't get any aid.

Offline chrislackey

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 03:31:27 PM »
Chrislackey, wanting that endless supply of food would also cast new light onto objections to any sort of contraception from such a figure. 

That genuinely creeped me out! I love it! I think those are the scariest/creepiest ideas. When someone or thing believes they are "good" and goes about it with an insane conviction. How do you deal with something like that? 

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 03:35:47 PM »
Well, OW59 has their "The Catch [+2] is wounds from holy objects.", so if going according to canon, it'd make sense why ghouls would avoid churches (and other holy places). If the game is set in Calcutta, I'd be interested in seeing the city character sheet, curious to see how others are incorporating local culture, customs, myths, religions and beliefs in a meaningful way.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 05:04:29 PM »
Well, since Emburii is basing the idea off of an idea he got from V:TM I would probably play a little looser with the ideas of "holy" and "faith."  Specifically, the "holy" in question would refer to religions and belief systems where a cannibalistic ghoul is anathema (okay, yes, that's most of them, but hear me out.) 

If Emburii's Mother Teresa comes from a sort of perverted offshot of Catholocism with a twisted idea of man's place in the world, in that monsters such as she have a holy duty to inflict suffering on humankind in an effort to purify them in advance of their eternal reward, and that for a ghoul the act of inflicting suffering and acting according to their nature is a holy act, she could probably get away with being in "holy" places founded by that offshoot.  Hell, she could have her own variant of True Faith under which things like Knights of the Cross would be antithetical, and eligible targets for things like Holy Touch.

Also, since we know that the RCVs have close relations with the largest clan of ghouls (Lechaise if memory serves) they could be instrumental in this perversion of what might be seen as one of the greatest threats to their power base (the Catholic church being big in South and Central America).  If they manage to get most of the people around them to believe that it is man's duty to suffer and the monster's duty to inflict suffering there will be less hostile True Faith out there for the RCVs to contend with.
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline Emburii

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 10:55:47 PM »
Really? Since when has a Ghoul been able to enter the Catholic Church in Dresden Book or am I reading a completely different series? Wait I am not. You are.

Dresden hides in the church and his allies to keep away from the evil and bad stuff like ghouls. Hell no proof? Read the series.

He hides in the church to keep away from some sorts of enemies, yes, but other than one reference earlier in the series to holy water (and that could have been due to extenuating circumstances) ghouls were never really portrayed as 'unholy', just monstrous.  Salt doesn't hurt ghouls even though t hurts fae, so assuming that all weaknesses hold true across all antagonist creatures seemed kind of silly.  On the other hand...

Quote
Well, OW59 has their "The Catch [+2] is wounds from holy objects.", so if going according to canon, it'd make sense why ghouls would avoid churches (and other holy places). If the game is set in Calcutta, I'd be interested in seeing the city character sheet, curious to see how others are incorporating local culture, customs, myths, religions and beliefs in a meaningful way.
 

There's an actual reference.  At that point I could argue that it is wounds and not just exposure; being stabbed by a crucifix might satisfy the catch, but as suggested earlier, a church might merely be uncomfortable.  RAW, baby.  Holy water might hurt her, but if I do a Scion or a True Faith exception (or both), even that could be minimal.

And chrislackey, your reaction is exactly what I'm looking for.  :)  I want characters to think about what someone is acually doing, not just what they're saying.  I want them to look at their own culture, things they've otherwise taken for granted.  One of my biggest frustrations with Dresden as a protaganist is the way he overlooks so much, and I want better out of my players. 
I want people also to consider the political implications of 'help'; how is the Order of St. Giles going to handle being flooded with newly infected from some of the Ghoul's hospitals, because she has made the grounds unholy and pain-filled enough to let them in?  Do they attack this Catholic 'living saint', even though they're sort of religiously based themselves?  Do they just attack the Red Court Vampires and leave her be, despite the pain she's causing?  How will the PCs react given the same choice, or issued an ultimatum if the Order tells them not to act against her?  The Order of Saint Giles is the only way to control the Hunger, what happens if one of their higher-ups declares that 'heretics' are not to be allowed in?  And that's not including individual reactions without the Order.  And, of course, after Proven Guilty the White Council has an alliance with the Knights and the Order, are the White Council wizards in the party going to take sides?

Offline osteomancer

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 10:44:01 PM »
The bare bones of a NPC Sheet for Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, I am having a hard time determining whether I would myself would want her as a Ghoul, a Half Ghoul Scion, a true believer (I am using Galahade, Knight of the Round Table as a big bad right now). So here is what I have;

Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu

High Concept: Ghoul of Calcutta
Other Aspects: "the call within the call", Sister of Loretto, "Theology of Suffering", "A Humanitarian for the Ages", "Lived like animals, To die like Angels"

Skills:
Contacts +4
Conviction +5
Deceit +3
Discipline +4
Presence +5
Rapport +4
Resources +5
Scholarship +3

Stunts:
Leadership
Weight of Reputation
Devout Words
Tower of Faith

Physical Stress: OO
Social Stress: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence) Armor 1
Mental Stress: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence) Armor 1

Note, For other skills not listed I believe it is personal preference based on creature type, not much is needed for a true believer but for a ghoul you may want some more combat based skills.

Offline Emburii

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2010, 03:06:17 AM »
Quote
Lived like animals, To die like Angels

I like the quote, though I'll probably neaten it up to 'Live Like An Animal, Die Like An Angel'. 



Offline Emburii

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2010, 12:05:55 PM »
Well, the Dresdenverse never explicitly makes clear who's manipulating the circumstances...but I would like to point out that the only time we hear of a condom, much less see one, it's been stuffed down someone's throat in order to transfer illicit goods.  Obviously someone's been spreading the 'tiny holes' fallacy or some other such nonsense.

Offline knnn

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2010, 07:13:24 PM »
As DFJunkie points out, there is no proof ghouls are allergic to holy stuff.  I cannot remember any such proof anywhere in the series, though I could be wrong and would welcome page references. 

In Grave Peril, when Michael seems surprised that Harry already knows Father Forthill, Harry mentions that he once asked Forthill to bless a barrel of holy water.  He then says "Talk about your surprised ghouls".

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Offline Synthesse

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2010, 08:06:25 AM »
Guys I was hoping to stat up Gandhi as warmongering count of the Red Court. Help plz?

Offline Kaldra

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2010, 04:27:46 AM »
dont be an arse, if your truly want help with that start up a new thread

Offline Sh33p

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2010, 03:02:22 PM »
Guys I was hoping to stat up Gandhi as warmongering count of the Red Court. Help plz?
The Butthurt is strong with this one. :D

That said: Couldn't be too hard. Red Court Gandhi could've easily gone the pacifistic route to try and damage the British Empire for his own reasons, then faked his death via assassination to spark the kind of chaotic environment in India that would be well-suited to a hunter of men.

Alternatively: Red Court Gandhi could've been trying to set up some kind of Epic Ritual of Doom that his assassin thwarted under some misinformed pretense.

Offline Becq

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2010, 08:44:39 PM »
In Grave Peril, when Michael seems surprised that Harry already knows Father Forthill, Harry mentions that he once asked Forthill to bless a barrel of holy water.  He then says "Talk about your surprised ghouls".

See OW58 (the text for Ghouls, not the statblock):

Quote
Weaknesses: Affected by holy water.
Unwavering inability to control their appetites
for long. Most are kind of dumb.

Regarding Ghouls and thresholds, I infer the following from the rules (though there are no specific rules for ghouls and thresholds in particular):

* A threshold acts as a block against supernatural creatures.  As this affects Wizards, I imagine it would affect Ghouls, as well.  (Note that this makes entering more difficult, but not impossible.)
* A threshold suppresses some supernatural abilities.  All affected supernatural abilities lose shifts of effectiveness.  Since the books indicate that thresholds provide defense against ghouls, I would assume that their supernatural abilities would be affected.  How much?  Hard to say, though as a first guess I would say that two points of threshold would remove Inhuman Strength and Speed and reduce Supernatural Recovery to Inhuman; four points of threshold would eliminate Recovery, too.  Most likely ghouls would be unable to feed while affected, though they would still be subjected to the negative effects of hunger, etc.  Oh, and any threshold at all would likely nix Human Guise for the duration.
* Some creatures (creatures of spirit) are entirely supernatural in nature and can't cross thresholds at all.  I don't think ghouls would qualify for this, however, as they are nominally semi-human.

Note that holy places have a default threshold strength of 3, but could be higher, especially if inhabited by a person of True Faith (Bless This House would likely increase this to 5).

That said, it isn't entirely clear to me whether you intended your version of Mother Theresa to be a truly holy person who was also a ghoul, or a evil ghoul impersonating a holy person.  Your references to the Sabbat lead me to believe the latter.  In this case, consider that while holy places have thresholds ... not all building that are used as a 'church' are necessarily automatically a holy place.  An evil ghoul might work out of a building that is 'impersonating' a church without actually being one, and therefore without having a threshold.  So the evil Mother Theresa would have no threshold-related problems.  However, the 'church' would also likely have some fairly foul aspects associated with it (Mother Theresa's Cathedral, Where The Other White Meat Is Always Fresh!), which would likely be palpable in some ways to even mere mortals.  And, of course, she'd have severe trouble entering actual holy places.

Of course, these are just my takes on the question.

Offline Viatos

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Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2010, 06:40:03 PM »
Easy way to deal with thresholds and holy stuff is the old Satanic conspiracy standby of desecration. It's a church, but Mother Theresa's cannibal cult has prepared the way and utterly destroyed its threshold, keeping the black masses and human sacrifice confined to the basement and vestibule so the front is still respectable. For added horror you could create a church complex, the kind with adjacent elementary school and dormitory, gates and walls all around, where the depraved monster can satisfy its endless hunger for childflesh in quantity.

Orphans and street urchins can vanish easily enough, but if she wants to enjoy more then a rare repast she'll have to use her cult (who, being human, might well turn out to be more monstrous then she is) to advance poverty and homelessness in the city under the guise of good works and public aid. Programs that appear to lend a helping hand but secretly weaken their beneficiaries spiritually, physically, and financially, cultivating addictions and dependencies and deliberately sabotaging the needy. The image here is a toothy Mother standing above a ledge where a struggling family's lynchpin (his or her dependents clinging to his or her ankles) can barely keep grip, until the ghoul steps forward and crunches down on fingers with a ravenous grin.

Give her strong social and mental skills, and try for unique powers to make it a memorable story arc. One idea might be to use True Faith variants based on Outsider worship that protect her against mortal True Faith and empower her with abominable eldritch might. Use her as a behind-the-scenes monster furthering goals beyond her own appetite, bringing ruin and suffering to the world. Make your players squirm a little. Great challenge for True Faith characters or bleeding heart types.

Love the idea.