How would you handle differences between elements?

[Dan from Chicago]

So it's definitely possible to get similar results using different elements. In the books, different elements have been used to create blocks:

Harry's spirit shield
Carlos's water/entropy shield
Elaine's Air Hyperawareness

Where would you rule that you can't use an element to create a result? Obviously fire wouldn't be used to pull something to you, whereas you could use air or spirit you pull it to you pretty easily, and earth has some potential(using a wave of earth, or maybe a tree).

Would you say it's more difficult to use one element rather than another to get some effects? Would that translate into additional shifts of difficulty?

I'm trying to get an idea of how the thematic differences of the elements would translate into mechanical game differences. I feel as though they shouldn't be perfect substitutes

[Steed]

Earth is also focused on gravity and electromagnetism, so you could use a magnetic force to pull something metal to you, or some kind of gravity effect for the same result.  Probably quicker and more subtle than the wave of earth.

[Nomad]

You can use one "element" to create the effects of another like Harry's little freezer trick. You can't pull with fire, sure but you can create a blastwave to push it to you. For Rube Goldberg machine maneuvers like entropy "skating" something by placing an entropic shield under it, I would impose a penalty ranging from 0 to 2 shifts depending on the amount of extra stuff. For some extra ordinary things like calling water by earthcrafting alone, I might even go for 1 shift penalty for each step required.

[luminos]

For the way the rules are written, the main difference between the elements is how you can justify being able to do things.  You won't necessarily run into very large mechanical differences, the main difficulty involved is how to justify the use of an element to do something, but no differences in difficulties if you succeed at that step.

I had something in the works for a complete rewrite of how the elements would work, which would create very definite mechanical differences between them, but I stopped bothering with it.  Maybe I'll fiddle a bit more on the front.

[Dan from Chicago]

You can use one "element" to create the effects of another like Harry's little freezer trick. You can't pull with fire, sure but you can create a blastwave to push it to you. For Rube Goldberg machine maneuvers like entropy "skating" something by placing an entropic shield under it, I would impose a penalty ranging from 0 to 2 shifts depending on the amount of extra stuff. For some extra ordinary things like calling water by earthcrafting alone, I might even go for 1 shift penalty for each step required.

This seems like a good approach. Sure it's possible to use fire to create a backdraft to pull an item towards you, however that should be way way way harder an application of fire than using air to achieve the same effect would be.

Maybe Epic difficulty vs Fair difficulty

If not than there's much less reason to spend the refresh to diversify.

[Nomad]

The different elements come into play mainly in 3 different areas: Satisfying Catches, Rube Goldberging and additional effects:

Satisfying Catches is probably the main point. Except for closing bleeding, I can't see how one could use "fire" to "heal" for example

Additional effects don't cost anything; a water based attack will deal blunt (water ball) or suffocation damage, a fire based attack will burn the target and the envirolment and a cold based attack may be piercing (icicle) or burn (cold coating) and so on.

As I said above the only time I would penalty the player would be the extreme rube goldberg moments.

[John Galt]

Being elementally diverse doesn't do much within dfrpg as written.   If you want it to you'll have to house rule it.  Simple as that.  Were I to try, I'd start WoT style: fire and earth easier to generate power, water and air easier to control.  Spirit wouldn't get a bonus, being the most versatile.  Then I'd add effect shifts when elements are used outside their norm.   So Harry 's lake trick might cost him 8 shifts of power or control and Carlos, who'd use water, 5 or 6

I should add.  The latter can be done by a clever GM or PC and scene aspects

[Nomad]

The lake trick also shows a reliable way to acquire new "elements" btw. If your player starts to use his existing elements creatively to intrude in a new element's domain (using fire to create cold, water to erode, entropy to make a sand pit) than it is a very natural and narratively satisfying way to grow his character into with new element specilisations. I like rewarding such natural growth with some little bonuses now and then.

[Stormraven]

Fire for healing?  Sure, I can see it.  It's an unbelievably subtle application (meaning Harry will probably never be able to manage) but use Fire to enhance the subject's energy reserves, or to selectively burn out poison or disease.  Very high power, very subtle, but I would allow them.

[CMEast]

Plus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauterization

Fire can't really handle non-lethal effects like knocking people unconscious.

Air might struggle with structural damage, breaking down doors/walls and objects that it can just flow around. It might also struggle to deal damage to heavy objects.

Water is similar to air, though it can use rust effects for damaging certain objects.

Earth isn't very subtle when it comes to damage. It's good with area effects, launching large boulders and things, pebbles aren't so effective though. Can't produce light.

Spirit can manipulate light and matter telekinetically, but it can't create any of the elements themselves.

With enough thought you can replicate most effects with any element, but some effects are easier than others. For instance you could use air to create sparks of lightning; or water could be used for a phosphorescent chemical perhaps; but it's not as good a light as creating a small ball of fire or creating pure light out of spirit magic.

[Nomad]

On a semi-related topic, there is also the second tier "elements" like Cold (Air and Water), Entropy (Water and Spirit/Force), Growth/Wood (Earth and Water)... What can you come up with?

[Ophidimancer]

Not to mention different elemental systems.  Like the Chinese Wu Hsing, which doesn't have Air but adds Metal and Wood.  The associations are different as well, the Chinese elements are each associated with a direction, an emotion, an organ system, a flavor, etc.