How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.

[Tree]

I think it bears mention that for discussion purposes, I'm interested in what avoids the stain on the soul...not what avoids the warden's blade.

What you use it for probably. Kumori uses necromancy to save a guy's life, she doesn't seem too twisted. On that note, wardens that go around using normal magic to slaughter people should be getting twisted around a bit themselves. I'm sure Jim will sort it out.

[smoore]

#1: The problem here is that Butcher set up the world with a Creator. With the first law your trying to break his basic rule, "Thou shalt not kill" without consequences. I don't think you can. I'd argue that even when the Wardens kill with a sword it stains their soul, just not in the same way as with magic. The White Council can stop people from killing with magic but not killing without it so they only care about the former, that doesn't mean the latter is any better. Talk to you local religious figure about how you can kill someone and yet not be responsible.

#2: A properly researched, well thought out ritual to transform  a person which takes into account all the consequences for storing their soul/mind/personality and allowing them to transform back at their will probably doesn't stain the soul. Spend a few decades doing the research on that one.

#3: The problem here is "invade". There has been a lot of discussion that if the invasion is voluntary then it might be ok, or if its just looking around. Yea sure, some of those particularly the looking into a voluntary subject might not stain the soul. But its too tempting to do a little tweak while in there, or look at secrets the person has. While in someones head can you resist the temptation to see what they really think of you? Probably not and if you do you just crossed the invasion line. The Council has determined that even defensive mind magic seems to be too close to breaking this law so they don't even teach anything beyond the basics. That seems a bit too far but its so the temptation never exists. To break this one I'd say it has to be 100% voluntary, no coercion, no threats, not even a you need to prove you innocent type of thing, and then only looking and only looking at the specific info they allow. Well if you meet all whose conditions there really isn't a reason to look is there?

#4: Any enthrallment is a stain, this one is clear. You can't make someone do anything, even love potions without negative effects.

#5: The stain only seems to apply to crossing the borders for things with souls. Sue was an abomination, but not a killable offense. Raising an army of zombie bunnies seems to at least tolerated. Again this comes back to the Creator issue. He won't like you bringing back the dead, what Koumari does will noble probably violated the Creator/Universes rules about that.

#6 I don't think the 6th stains the soul at all, its just such a bad idea to go back in time that it has to be stopped. To many actions messing with the past lead to breaking the "thou shalt not kill rule", even if you don't use magic beyond the time travel part. Changing history means someone out there died who didn't before and you were the cause. You could probably go back, veiled, levitating and incorporeal leaving no trace and record events without causing a stain but extreme precautions would need to be taken not to influence anything. Precautions which are probably so difficult as to be impossible.

#7 The 7th has a lot of leeway. Research that never contacts an outsider probably doesn't hurt at all, its just that those who start to research write it down and other people pick up that work with bad consequences.
Dealing with one is just a road to corruption.

[Ophidimancer]

#1: The problem here is that Butcher set up the world with a Creator. With the first law your trying to break his basic rule, "Thou shalt not kill" without consequences.

This is only assuming the Judeo-Christian Creator, which is not necessarily the case.

#4: Any enthrallment is a stain, this one is clear. You can't make someone do anything, even love potions without negative effects.

No, the love potion was explained as grey.

#6 I don't think the 6th stains the soul at all

According to the rules it does.

[smoore]

This is only assuming the Judeo-Christian Creator, which is not necessarily the case.

I think Butcher has made it clear the Creator is Judeo-Christian, or least something similar. It has something to do with 3 guys with swords, nails and named archangels. Even if we say the Creator is something vaguer and more broad scoped, no mainstream religion support outright killing and while the wording might not be the same the same basic rule applies in all of them. Some of them allow and even require killing criminals of various kinds but outright murder of innocents is always out, and thats really what he is trying to get away with. Yes, I know fanatics in every religion find a way to justify killing someone they don't like, that doesn't mean it doesn't violate the religions basic tenants.

No, the love potion was explained as grey.

And that's exactly what we are talking about grey areas. Sometimes the Laws might be overly strict, others they might actually be to lenient. IMO love potions would be that too lenient area. They stain slightly but the council can't really condemn every high school girl who makes one, they don't have enough time on their hands. Then the question becomes how effective the potion is anyway? Who can test every case to see if the boy fell in love on his own or some girl actually managed to create a potion?

According to the rules it does.

According to the rules you get lawbreaker for it. And there is a 99.9% overlap between the laws and stain.  I don't think the actual time travel generates a stain, I just think its impossible to go back in time and not mess something up which does cause a stain. Its a fine line, so fine that its impossible to not wreck the natural order when doing it, but the discussion is what can you do without getting a stain. Travel no stain. Do anything once you have traveled, including breath, walk, etc.  stain.

[CMEast]

@smoore: The judeo-christian god seems to exist in the Dresdenverse, but there is no guarantee it's anything like people believe in the real world. There is no proof that it is the 'creator' or that it set the laws of magic in motion.

The laws of magic are totally separate to the 10 commandments and the 'stain on the soul' is totally different to sin. The seven laws are about magical acts that change the caster and, for the last three, damage the fabric of reality too.

[Bruce Coulson]

#1.  The Wardens 'circumvent' this one routinely.  You can't kill...with magic.  But nothing prevents you from rendering a person helpless with magic, and then killing them.  A Warden uses a Veil to sneak into a warehouse and lies in wait for a warlock.  Warlock enters, warden hits him from behind with sword, fini.  There are endless variations of the above.  There doesn't seem to be any way you can directly kill someone with magic and avoid the Lawbreaker stunt; but a creative magical type can find all sorts of ways to use magic to get to their target and then kill them.

[Nomad]

What you do defines who you are. Imagine an average peaceful sheltered joe in a safe community that never even had a bar fight in his life. Then one day he has to kill a man. That peaceful joe is gone forever. He is wounded in his soul and worst case scenario if he had a psychological weakness even a self defence killing can trigger it, turning him into a closet monster. Best case scenario, it will take him years of happiness and constant business to white wash it in his mind so he can sleep soundly and not remember it except on bad days.   

In case of magic this is even more sharper and immidiate. The laws show this. No morality or right or wrong. If you kill, it becomes easier and easier to kill, you become more violent, everything become nails to your hammer. If you mindscramble, then it becomes easier to do and easier to make the decision.

IMO, 5 of the laws represent the damage a caster does to himself. Even Kumori the white necro (a personal liked character) was twisted. Sure she didn't aspire to be a tyrant but she was still blinded and obsessed.
The Time and Outsider laws are (again imo) are there as preventitive measures. It must be really easy to frack up if you are dealing with these 2 issues (and remember that you are fiddling with the whole creation not a puny genocide or specicide). These 2 laws represent  an "administrative" issues rather than "pewrsonal corruptions". (If you do get into contact with outsiders or timeshift then that is a whole different lake of piranhas.)  

*The love potion was legal because it actually didn't add something to the victim. It is lika a ultra concantrated tequila/vodka/beer shot that lowers the victims inhibitions and enhances sexual appetite by making the base ingredients more potent and reducing some of the effects (you get drunk not alcohol coma and such)

[FutureGameDesigner]

Well crap, I'm already hosed if I ever get my hands on magic then.  I don't have the slightest compunction about doing any of it to begin with.  I probably won't, because it's impractical...but as soon as it becomes the most efficient choice by results, kablammo.

That reminds me, I need to get a paintball gun and lots of habanero extract...

[Bruce Coulson]

All the Laws could really be filed under one word.

Hubris.

Every Law ultimately deals with the idea of a wizard assuming authority over a matter given solely to Higher Powers.

From another perspective, the Laws simply represent metaphysical reality as currently understood by the White Council.  It may not be entirely correct, but it works.  (Imagine a Law as being similar to, say the law of Gravity in the mundane world.  Now, imagine the Council's understanding of gravity being equivalent to, say, classical Greek thinking.  You don't need calculus and Newton to know that falling off a cliff is going to hurt, and the higher the cliff, the bigger the hurt.)

[mime64]

I wonder how this would affect my Perceptimancer (photomancer)?

[Nomad]

What does he do exactly? Does he use light based attacks and illusions (like jubilee from x-man?) or does he use some kind of photography to make voodooo dolls and such?

[mime64]

percepi(o)/perceptum
to gain, learn, perceive, understand

Photomancy is on page 286.

Basically I was working on a guy who could do ghost sounds, make people see things that aren't there, not see things that are there, change how they perceive things that are there.

[Bruce Coulson]

Visual illusions are not a violation of the 4th Law; you aren't tampering with anyone's mind, just what they see or hear.  Ditto for Veils; again, you're affecting what they see, not how they see it.

Changing how mortals perceive things...that's starting to shade into a grey zone.  Depending on your local Warden, since you're not actually making a change in their cognition, just their perception, you might be okay...but you might not.  This is something you and your group should decide; is that a violation of the 4th Law or not?  If they agree it's not (there's good arguments either way, so really it's what your group decides would be the most fun) then go for it!

[ballplayer72]

All the Laws could really be filed under one word.

Hubris.

Every Law ultimately deals with the idea of a wizard assuming authority over a matter given solely to Higher Powers.

From another perspective, the Laws simply represent metaphysical reality as currently understood by the White Council.  It may not be entirely correct, but it works.  (Imagine a Law as being similar to, say the law of Gravity in the mundane world.  Now, imagine the Council's understanding of gravity being equivalent to, say, classical Greek thinking.  You don't need calculus and Newton to know that falling off a cliff is going to hurt, and the higher the cliff, the bigger the hurt.)

Good analogy!     Its like touching the stove as a kid.    You only need to do it one time to learn "fire hurts.  don't touch fire.".  You don't need to know WHY it works or how to get around that.  You simply need to know not to do it.

[JosephKell]

#1.  The Wardens 'circumvent' this one routinely.  You can't kill...with magic.  But nothing prevents you from rendering a person helpless with magic, and then killing them.  A Warden uses a Veil to sneak into a warehouse and lies in wait for a warlock.  Warlock enters, warden hits him from behind with sword, fini.  There are endless variations of the above.  There doesn't seem to be any way you can directly kill someone with magic and avoid the Lawbreaker stunt; but a creative magical type can find all sorts of ways to use magic to get to their target and then kill them.

I think the wardens use magic to debuff the warlock (do blocks on spellcasting).  And since most crazy evil guys think magic solves all problems, they don't carry guns, swords (maybe knives), or practice karate.

Then they either put a bullet in their brain or take their sword to the warlock (or just capture them for trial).  It isn't like they use magic to press them against a wall (they don't have to, warlocks tend to be vanilla except for their spellcasting).

This is why I think smart mortals use magic for the hardest "forensic" steps of committing murder or any other crime.  Most murders are closed because of a misstep getting to, into, out of, and/or away from the crime scene.  And if you can take an escape route that others can't (or don't even know about, such as the Nevernever), you can be as loud as you want.  Is a neighbor really going to get the cops there fast enough if you fire off a few revolver rounds (no casings left behind, and it isn't unheard of to re-bore barrels--in case the gun had a history), then close the portal?

Especially if you don't even step out of the portal you open!  No footprints on the scene!

Or, don't use the nevernever (crazy monsters there after all) and instead made travel potions to get in, and out quickly.  You still risk being see getting to and from the scene, but loitering is what really makes people notice anyway.

Sample potions:
- Block potion on INVESTIGATION checks (to get a description).  People still notice you (Alertness), but they can't quite remember your hair color, voice, weight, height, or what you're carrying (a shotgun looks like a box of roses?).