Author Topic: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.  (Read 10903 times)

FutureGameDesigner

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How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« on: July 24, 2010, 05:41:58 AM »
This thread is dedicated to trying to determine how one can accomplish certain results that would otherwise be possible only through violation of one of the seven Laws of Magic, without actually "staining" your soul.  It was inspired by another thread about whether the Jedi Mind Trick is a 4th Law violation or not...and that thread has apparently died since it is not, in fact, a violation of the 4th Law, since use of the Force is not magic.

Anyway, moving along.

Before I made myself feel stupid by realizing very late that the Force is not magic...I pointed out that a certain type of veil might be used in place of actual neuromancy.  Instead of placing a veil around the thing you want to hide, encase it around the thing you want to hide FROM.  Adjust the veil accordingly to filter whatever you want them to perceive or not, be it an illusion or simple "invisibility" or even "these aren't the droids you're looking for".  You aren't even so much as touching their mind...so while the Wardens might still want to lop your head off on principle...would the act specifically stain your soul as a 4th Law violation?  Additionally, someone with in-depth knowledge of psychology and a flair for subtlety could make such a veil that would convince nearly any target of almost anything...and they only get to resist it as they would any other veil.

Any other ideas on how to sidestep the Laws?  The Wardens and the White Council in general are hopelessly undermanned right now, and even with the Vampire War over, it will take centuries for them to rebuild their infrastructure.  So, unless the Paranet can educate more new talents than the Wardens would've killed, there's going to be a sizable increase in the number of warlocks in the near future.  A clever person might sense the taint around certain acts though, and find ways around them.  While Wardens would normally have still killed them for it (even though they can't right now), the fact is that they wouldn't be stained by their actions...and that's what's most important.

So, again...any other notions?

Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 06:48:43 AM »
No, I don't think your example violates that particular wall if your veil is entirely of seeming and not of "YOU SEE NOTHING! *squish*" However, I would think that such a veil would be more difficult, as, if I understand you right, you're placing a "Screen" around the target that projects reality minus what you want them to see, instead of just the smaller screen in front of what you want hidden. That sounds an order of magnitude more complicated to create, and more draining to maintain, especially if they move. Normal veil would be more practical.

How to kill with magic...my favorite tactic I have ready? Door opening to the NeverNever. I open a portal under your feet, and in you fall. I didn't kill you, where you landed did, especially if it was some other critter in the NeverNever that ate you, and not, say, the lack of oxygen there. Even if it's not an end run around the Law, it's damned hard to prove, as there's no body, plus, it's such a possibly convenient way to dispose of a body. And trap doors are fun.

Offline Jaxom Faux

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 07:21:54 AM »
my understanding of the 1st law was if their death was an effect of your spell your still responsible.

aka is you cast a monster storm spell and couldn't handle it so there was fallout and a toad came out of the sky and killed a man by landing on him at terminal velocity it's still your fault.

besides i quote the book: If you summon up a gust of wind to knock someone off a building, you definitely broke the first law, even if it's "just" the fall that killed him.

further reading seems to go more along the lines of "If there was your magic involved and the guy died you broke the first law regardless."

i don't think you can "get away with" breaking the 1st law in any way shape or form.

Offline Saedar

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 07:58:44 AM »
Maybe if you made it rain and they slipped, compelling an aspect of "Just So Clumsy?"

Offline Tree

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2010, 08:06:07 AM »
Well, essentially you would do it by being indirect. If you want to influence someone to do what you want, mind bend his pet instead and make your own lassie that tells him what to do, it might work just out of weirdness.

If you want to kill a guy with magic don't use a gust of wind to knock him off a building, way too direct. Simply arrange an accident. Same way you would physically, if it was obviously unintentional they won't be coming after you... For example, If you magically disconnect a guy's brake cable you might be a murder. If you screw with a cottonmouth's brain and convince it to nest under his car seat on the other hand... Even better would be to introduce a few black widow's to his house, especially if they're local anyway. Magic is really quite unessential at that point, but you could use it if you wanted to...

Of course the easy way would be to just clot a tiny bit of blood in his brain. I don't understand why anyone would use that spectacular heart ripping out thing. Way more convenient if it can be chalked up to one fo the most common causes of death.

For that matter, magically causing cancer should be extremely easy.

Jim should try that one some time, have people mysteriously die from cancer and stroke, normal except for the targets. Like the magical equivalent of Kincaid's kind of methods, except sneakier and even more efficient.

FutureGameDesigner

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2010, 09:37:38 AM »
If you remember, veils also inhibit the perceptions of the person veiled in the same way and almost to the same degree as those who can't perceive the target.  Only Molly seems to have no trouble with this.  When she gets older, she's going to be a master of veils that even The Merlin won't be able to match.  Her natural talent for them is beyond the experience of even some of the big dogs.  Harry sees through them because he just knows her so well, and he's even admitted that he absolutely can't get through her veils, he just knows how she thinks so he catches her.

That said...you're right that it would be an extremely difficult thing to do, but more for someone who had already become fixated on conventional methods.  Someone self-taught would have only slightly more trouble with that variation than they would with a standard veil.  I think the potential benefits are worth exploring though.  After all, it's easier to make a little bubble around one target than try to create a complete illusion over an entire area.  In this instance though, it's a workaround on the 4th Law because it's not actual Neuromancy.  The magic never comes in contact with their mind, nor alters their thoughts or mental state.  That can't be done with all of them.  Manipulating the dead (human dead anyway), even if using tightly controlled bursts of pure force to move them like puppets...is necromancy.  Heck, the White Council probably thinks forensic medical examiners are necromancers waiting to happen if they ever developed talent.

As for the "drop em in the nevernever" method of killing...I don't think there's really a way to beat the 1st Law on purpose.  Indirect death isn't good enough.  If you use magic to knowingly cause circumstances that are certain, or even only LIKELY to kill the target, you're violating the 1st Law.  The stain comes from the combination of intent and magic.  You don't violate the 4th Law by using drugs and devices to alter someone's memory or force them to give up information, because there's no magic...even though there's intent.  If you cast a non-neuromantic spell but it affects their mind anyway...no intent, no violation.  If you blow up vampires with fire and don't know mortals are inside...no intent, no violation.  Problem is, dropping someone into the potentially lethal nevernever specifically for that potential lethality, is still a stain on your soul.  You purposefully act to end another's life, and you're calling on magic to facilitate it, even if the spell itself isn't what strikes them down.

Since most of the Laws only apply to what you do to mortals, doing it to vampires, fae, demons, outsiders, and other such creatures is perfectly alright.  Frowned upon, but apparently not "bad for you" spiritually.  The Wardens don't kill you for it, but they sure watch you like a hawk afterward...just waiting for you to cross the line and do it to a mortal.

The 1st, 6th, and 7th laws are pretty well untouchable.  It's impossible to kill with magic intentionally without staining your soul, even indirectly.  If you want the target to die, and you cast a spell that even so much as leads to their death, 1st Law violation right there.  You can't do anything with the Outer Gates at all, so any spell that does anything involving outsiders even in concept will do the trick.  I don't think looking for knowledge about any of it taints your soul, but the ideas are so dangerous that they tacked all of that on too.  Seeing the future isn't chronomancy, it's divination.  Sending anything backward though (even if it's not material but rather a specific thought sent back) is chronomancy (and neuromancy too, if it's a thought, even if it's to yourself)...and is a blatant violation under all circumstances (though I don't think that one taints your soul, I think it's more about the sheer danger of screwing with the past)

Ultimately though, the real purpose of this thread is to find ways to avoid the stain...not necessarily the Warden's blade.  So, how do we not stain the soul with some of these Laws?  Killing at all is pretty much out.  You can't even use a burst of force to fling a knife at someone.  You can't even enchant bullets to follow targets (even if that were possible, which I don't think it is).  If you seek to inflict death or even harm (that directly though accidentally results in death) on the target, and use magic to lead them in any way to that goal, you're staining your soul.

Offline Fedifensor

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2010, 01:30:11 PM »
i don't think you can "get away with" breaking the 1st law in any way shape or form.
Contract Hit - You summon a creature from the Nevernever (or, more accurately, provide a gateway for said creature).  You bargain with the creature to have it kill someone, and offer to pay it with some sort of magical service.  However, the actual contract is not imposed by magic, and the killing is not done via the caster's magic.  You caused the death, but you didn't cause it via magic - it's a mundane bargain that just happens to have used magic to get the other party present for bargaining, and pays for the killing by providing a magical service at a future date.

Things get a bit dicey if the deal is enforced by a magical contract, as that ties magic into the actual killing.  But a mundane deal should be fine (even if the deal gives an opening for the creature should it be broken, the same way faeries have power over you when you break a deal with them).

Offline ryanroyce

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 02:54:39 PM »
Contract Hit - You summon a creature from the Nevernever (or, more accurately, provide a gateway for said creature).  You bargain with the creature to have it kill someone, and offer to pay it with some sort of magical service.  However, the actual contract is not imposed by magic, and the killing is not done via the caster's magic.  You caused the death, but you didn't cause it via magic - it's a mundane bargain that just happens to have used magic to get the other party present for bargaining, and pays for the killing by providing a magical service at a future date.

Things get a bit dicey if the deal is enforced by a magical contract, as that ties magic into the actual killing.  But a mundane deal should be fine (even if the deal gives an opening for the creature should it be broken, the same way faeries have power over you when you break a deal with them).

 Considering that Binder from Turn Coat routinely gets away with having his bound Grey Men kill people without earning Lawbreaker or even the Wardens' Sword, I'd say that this is needlessly complicated.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2010, 09:38:17 PM »
Considering that Binder from Turn Coat routinely gets away with having his bound Grey Men kill people without earning Lawbreaker or even the Wardens' Sword, I'd say that this is needlessly complicated.

That's not clear, actually. His name aside, we never see them bound, and he seems to have a good working relationship with them (or the hive mind behind them), so a deal of some sort is very possible.

In fact, based on Harry's comments about summoning things to kill people in both Storm Front and Proven Guilty, I think that's what he needs to have one to avoid the Wardens killing him (or at least sending his own critters back at him to do so).

Offline MijRai

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2010, 10:14:33 PM »
Actually, I'd say shoving someone into the NeverNever to die wouldn't break the First Law, so long as you don't know what is on the other side. You don't know where they went, so there's a chance they landed in Lily's lap, and they get helped out by Fix. Now, they could land in Maeve's lap, spill her drink, and step on Grimalkin's tail . You know what'll happen there.
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Offline Walker_Blade

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 12:52:10 AM »
The most common way to get around the first law:  Use magic to immobilize and cripple the enemy and then chop off their head.  Wardens do it all the time.

Offline Nomad

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 05:26:15 AM »
Jaxom Faux: I would argue that it is the intent behind the magic that determines if you stain your soul or not. Consider the scenario:

The wizard Q creates a huge weather effect that goes out of control and causes the deaths of a couple of people.
If the guy was acting like a brainless jock and this is the result then it is a lawbreaker.
If the guy was acting out of desperation to take out some monsters (like a flock of harpies or clearing the cloud cover to burn some blamps) and he passes out from backlash (and looses the control), I wouldn't assign lawbreaker to him. Sure he would get in serious trouble with the White Council but thats a different matter.

If you are intention is to kill with magic or magic created effect or if you act irresponsibly (juvenile etc) then it is a lawbreaker. If you are only holding the guy so you can stab him then it is not. If you were trying your hardest and you couldn't hold it together cousing colleteral damage it isn't (it is sure to be a  negative aspect change however)
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Offline Jaxom Faux

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 09:49:26 PM »
Jaxom Faux: I would argue that it is the intent behind the magic that determines if you stain your soul or not. Consider the scenario:

The wizard Q creates a huge weather effect that goes out of control and causes the deaths of a couple of people.
If the guy was acting like a brainless jock and this is the result then it is a lawbreaker.
If the guy was acting out of desperation to take out some monsters (like a flock of harpies or clearing the cloud cover to burn some blamps) and he passes out from backlash (and looses the control), I wouldn't assign lawbreaker to him. Sure he would get in serious trouble with the White Council but thats a different matter.

If you are intention is to kill with magic or magic created effect or if you act irresponsibly (juvenile etc) then it is a lawbreaker. If you are only holding the guy so you can stab him then it is not. If you were trying your hardest and you couldn't hold it together cousing colleteral damage it isn't (it is sure to be a  negative aspect change however)

1. the council doesn't care about intentions, if you were using magic and it results in someones death, you broke the law. period.

2. holding a guy to kill him? lawbreaker, your magic is abetting your murder.

3.
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Contract Hit - You summon a creature from the Nevernever (or, more accurately, provide a gateway for said creature).  You bargain with the creature to have it kill someone, and offer to pay it with some sort of magical service.  However, the actual contract is not imposed by magic, and the killing is not done via the caster's magic.  You caused the death, but you didn't cause it via magic - it's a mundane bargain that just happens to have used magic to get the other party present for bargaining, and pays for the killing by providing a magical service at a future date.

Things get a bit dicey if the deal is enforced by a magical contract, as that ties magic into the actual killing.  But a mundane deal should be fine (even if the deal gives an opening for the creature should it be broken, the same way faeries have power over you when you break a deal with them).

i think the wardens would argue using magic to summon up the creature to make the deal in the first place (consorting with demons/blah/blah) would be more than enough to get you on their "kill him" list.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:54:51 PM by Jaxom Faux »

Offline ryanroyce

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 10:58:42 PM »
1. the council doesn't care about intentions, if you were using magic and it results in someones death, you broke the law. period.

2. holding a guy to kill him? lawbreaker, your magic is abetting your murder.

3.
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i think the wardens would argue using magic to summon up the creature to make the deal in the first place (consorting with demons/blah/blah) would be more than enough to get you on their "kill him" list.

1. The Council doesn't care about intentions, but IMHO the "Universe" that decides whether or not you've earned Lawbreaker DOES.

2. Wardens' wrath?  Almost certainly.  Lawbreaker?  Not so certain.  These two things are often in agreement, but not nearly as often as the Wardens would like to think.

3.
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FutureGameDesigner

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Re: How to Circumvent the Laws...Correctly.
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 06:17:29 AM »
I think it bears mention that for discussion purposes, I'm interested in what avoids the stain on the soul...not what avoids the warden's blade.

Also, for game purposes...we may want to make the distinction as well that just because the wardens want to lop off a character's head, doesn't necessarily mean they got a Lawbreaker power for whatever they did.  The power is related to the stain on the soul, not any interpretive legality by the wardens.

As such, you can't kill someone with magic, period.  You can't even use magic to set off a Rube Goldberg machine that kills someone.  If you call upon magic in ANY way while you possess the intent to kill, and someone dies...you're hosed, period.

Now maybe...and I can't stress it enough, MAYBE...if you do something that's normally nonlethal by design and you have no intent to kill of any kind and someone still dies, then you might just get off the hook with the soul stain.  The Wardens will still give your head and body a divorce, but at least your soul might be clean.