Custom Power List

[Taran]

I don't feel my character has been massively effective with them.

If you are talking the Worm game, you've only used it once and it happen to hit the enemy's immunity.  Wait until there are multiple enemies.  If you combined it with a speed power, it'd be that much more deadly.

I've seen it in Divine Comedy where combats usually last one attack.

I Mythic Strength only adds to damage but this adds to damage AND accuracy.  I don't think it should do both.  Anyways, I think it's been debated before...I'm not sure if this is the right thread for it.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is probably the best place available to talk about it. I'm not planning on editing them right now, but if and when I change them I'll definitely come back to this part of the thread. And anyone else planning to use/change them is likely to look here too.

Anyway, I'm not surprised if it proved to be overpowered. It always was pushing the limits somewhat. Of course, being attached to Ozmadiel no doubt made it more unfair. I'm honestly surprised vultur let Hick get away with that build.

PS: I'm not sure a Submerged Wizard would fare so well here. Ziggurat has Mythic Toughness, right?

[Taran]

Yes, she has Mythic Toughness.  Here's a build that I could have used in the Apocalypse game.  It's got a neat limitation, although, I'm not sure I priced it properly because I'm not familiar Limitation as a power.  But I just did a quick build as an example.

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+2 Iop (flying suit of armour)
   -1 Wings
   -2 Energy Absorption: light/fire
        -4 Super Toughness
      +3 Catch: light/lasers

       +5 Limitation: solar powered/limited battery - the following powers are only used in light
        In darkness or partial light, the following powers only work for 3 exchanges
       -6 Mythic Str
       -6 Mythic Speed
       -6 Mythic Skill
total refresh: -17
Skills:
+6 Weapons; Athletics
+5 Endurance; Guns
+4 Alertness; Investigation

Phys: 0000 (0000) armour: 4

So, in 4 zones I can hit every single target(avoiding all allies) with a
Total attack: +9 (weapon:13  (weapon 4 + Mythic skill +3 + Mythic STR +6)
Dodge: 9 Parry: 9

[ways and means]

I thought it was built into the power that stunts and true aim don't stack with it.

[Taran]

*re-reading*

Yes, that's true.

So, instead it's accuracy 9; weapon 13 in 4 zones, targeting every single enemy(excluding allies)

I'll edit that build

[ways and means]

Yes accuracy 9 and weapon 13 over 4 zones good but at 17 refresh a caster could easily be attacking for accuracy 16+ (+4 specialization, +6 skill + 6 focus) with high weapons rating, a crafter could be boosting himself with 4 aspects a turn (love the thaumaturgy) and defending, attacking, veiling and blocking at 12.

[Taran]

foci are restricted to Lore and specializations need a pyramid.

Also, a wizard needs to spend mental stress each round.

4 zones is 8 shifts of power
Weapon 13 is another 13 shifts

That wizard would have to control 21 shifts of power and they'd hit EVERY person, friend or foe, in those 4 zones.

The fighter with Mythic Skill can do that every exchange.

[Sanctaphrax]

That is pretty impressive, but honestly an evoker can still put out better offence. Power and control 15 lets you do a weapon 7 accuracy 15 attack across four zones, which is quite a bit better than accuracy 9 weapon 13. Plus the attack has range.

Sure, it costs mental stress, but when you hit that hard you don't usually need to hit twice.

What really worries me is something like a character with Mythic Skill, Inhuman Toughness, Inhuman Recovery, and a +3 Catch at Chest Deep. Legendary attacks at weapon 6, legendary defences against everything, and superhuman durability. Plus plenty of open skill slots, little gear dependence, the zone attack option, and the other side benefits of Mythic Skill. And that's without going for every available rebate.

Mythic Speed and Mythic Skill look really impressive together because of that four-zone attack, but the Powers actually interfere with each other a bit. So I think the big scary possibility of attacking four zones distracts people from how dangerous Skill is at lower levels of play.

[Taran]

Even without a speed power, I can attack everyone in two zones, with only a -1 penalty.

My problem is that you can do zone-wide without hitting allies.  There's nothing in the core book that allows that.  The exception is zone-wide blocks that affect allies - but that's purely defensive.

As I stated early: yes, the wizard can output lots of damage in many zones but not without hitting himself or allies.

Removing that one ability from the power would do a lot to balance it.  Maybe give it a bonus to spray attacks instead.
I don't think it should add to damage either.  Strength already does that.  Maybe accuracy but not both.

Generally, for a 'building block' power, I think you should break down combat into its parts and find out what the existing powers don't cover, and boost that.  None of the 'building block' powers overlap much.

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Alertness/ambushes          initiative Accuracy melee Accuracy range Accuracy spray Damage Spray dodge Parry block maneuver Grapple movement Damage Armour Stress

Nothing Speed power Nothing nothing Nothing Strength Speed Power Nothing Nothing (athletics=speed; Might=STR) Strength Speed Strength Toughness Toughness

I'm not sure if I missed something.  But there are several things, namely accuracy, that aren't affected by any of the Powers.  Look into those, block and spray attacks.  Maybe allow parries on an ambush as long as the weapon is drawn to tap into that aspect of combat.  Instead of damaging every opponent in a zone, let the person spend their action to block attacks on every ally in the zone - since wizards can do that anyways.  Or maybe for each level of skill they can protect one additional target.
themselves +1; themselves +2; themselves+3 by putting a block up for that turn.  Anyways - I'm just throwing out ideas however imperfect they may seem.

[Sanctaphrax]

My problem is that you can do zone-wide without hitting allies.  There's nothing in the core book that allows that.

So?

New doesn't mean overpowered. In my experience, hitting allies is rarely a concern for a smart group.

I really don't think the selective zone attack thing is a big deal. It only shows up at the Mythic level and it simply won't matter in most fights. You could drop it completely and the Powers would still be very scary.

Generally, for a 'building block' power...

This isn't really a building block power. It's not intended to be one of the standard things that most supernaturals have some level of.

Anyway, some level of overlap is unavoidable. Speed boosts Athletics defence, any Skill power needs to boost Weapons defence.

I don't think it should add to damage either.  Strength already does that.  Maybe accuracy but not both.

I've been thinking of the same thing. The Strength overlap doesn't bother me at all, but dropping the damage boost seems like the simplest and most elegant way to weaken the Power.

Maybe allow parries on an ambush as long as the weapon is drawn to tap into that aspect of combat.

That might be a good idea. I'm loath to make this ability any stronger, though.

Instead of damaging every opponent in a zone, let the person spend their action to block attacks on every ally in the zone...

Anyone can do that. If a block affects only one type of action, it can affect multiple people.

[Taran]

That might be a good idea. I'm loath to make this ability any stronger, though.

I just meant instead of something else.

[Sanctaphrax]

Revised Skill Powers here.

The changes aren't big. I dropped the stress bonuses, expanded the skill bonuses, made the bonuses compatible with stunts, made it clear that higher levels replace lower ones, and added descriptions.

Thoughts?

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INHUMAN SKILL [-2]
Description: You are incredibly skilled with weapons. In fact, you're more skilled than it's humanly possible to be.
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
Master Of War. Add 1 to your Weapons skill. This bonus doesn't stack with True Aim.
Deflect Arrows. As long as you are armed, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against ranged attacks with arrows, thrown weapons, and other physical projectiles that are slow enough to see.
Strike Like The Wind. You may make spray attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action.
Attuned To The Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills.

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SUPERNATURAL SKILL [-4]
Description: You are far more skilled with weapons than any normal human could ever be. Your movements in battle are so fast and precise that any fight you get into looks choreographed.
Musts: This Power replaces Inhuman Skill.
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
Lord Of War. Add 2 to your Weapons skill. This bonus doesn't stack with True Aim.
Parry Everything. As long as you are armed, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against any attack that could be dodged with Athletics.
Strike Like Lightning. You may make spray attacks and zone-wide attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action. You don't hurt yourself when attacking your own zone.
One With The Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills. Your other skills are treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying your Weapons skill.

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MYTHIC SKILL [-6]
Description: Your combat skill is frankly ridiculous. When you fight, it's as though the laws of physics have temporarily been suspended.
Musts: This Power replaces Inhuman or Supernatural Skill.
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
God Of War. Add 3 to your Weapons skill. This bonus doesn't stack with True Aim.
Perfect Defence. You may use your Weapons skill to defend against any attack that could be dodged with Athletics.
Strike Like The Sunlight. You may make spray attacks and zone-wide attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action. You may choose which characters to affect when attacking a zone, and when you combine a zone attack with a supplemental move you may attack every zone that you move through.
Living Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills. Your other skills are treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying your Weapons skill. As long as you are alive, weapons that you are wielding cannot break and you cannot be disarmed against your will. You may attack unarmed with your Weapons skill.

[gojj]

I like the power overall, it would be very cool on a Deadpool type character. That said, here are my questions/concerns.

1. One With The Weapon.
This is similar to Superior Strength (YS 183) in that it doesn't count for attack and defense rolls, right? As in (assuming you have Supernatural Skill), you wouldn't add three to your weapons rolls claiming that your athletics modifies your weapons roll, right?.

2. Parry Everything/Perfect Defense
I'm not a fan of these, because Dodging gets moved to Weapons, I see very little incentive to take Speed powers, as (arguably) the most useful trapping has been moved elsewhere. Also, while deflecting bullets is awesome, how would you parry a fireball? Or a giant boulder? Or an explosion?

What if instead the three levels are thrown objects/"Slow" missile attacks (arrows are the only thing that comes to mind)/Bullets. The second level stinks but you see what I mean. I just think there are some things that are simply impossible to block with weapons, no matter how fast/dextrous you are. I think that these trappings step on the feet of the Speed Powers just a tad too much.

3. Strike Like The Sunlight
I think this is very cool, and you are paying 6 refresh for the power at this point, but I'm unsure about the ability to make zone attacks on two separate zones with the ability to avoid any friendly fire that accompanies zone attacks. I like the ability to avoid hitting allies (as the user is merely moving from target to target instead just spinning in a circle haphazardly), but perhaps drop the ability to hit the second zone, and instead remove the -2 penalty on zone attacks. This still allows the user to clear out groups of people, but just not two zones worth of people.

This is by far my weakest objection, as it is motivated more of a gut feeling than anything concrete.

4.
Do you think you could expand these powers to Guns as well? As in, when taking the power the player can decide whether they want to apply it to Guns or Weapons? We've seen in movies people being able to shoot bullets out of the air, or blow away an entire room of people on a quick draw, and this power could be a good way to model a Kincaid type character.

You might have to tweak some of the wording on some of the trappings, but I think it could work nicely, what do you think?



Reading down I see that you guys have been talking about this for awhile. I don't think I talked about anything you guys have already discussed, but if I did I'm sorry.

Also, here's my two cents on a couple of points you guys were talking about.

What really worries me is something like a character with Mythic Skill, Inhuman Toughness, Inhuman Recovery, and a +3 Catch at Chest Deep. Legendary attacks at weapon 6, legendary defences against everything, and superhuman durability. Plus plenty of open skill slots, little gear dependence, the zone attack option, and the other side benefits of Mythic Skill. And that's without going for every available rebate.

Well the simplest way to prevent this would just be to not allow your player to take the Mythic level of this skill, or at least not at lower refresh levels. The fact that this power can be fully utilized with only one skill could be a problem, but you'd probably have to wait until one of your players took this skill in game to see how balanced it actually is.

As I stated early: yes, the wizard can output lots of damage in many zones but not without hitting himself or allies.

Remember that Wizards can pump up the weapon value of their attacks much, much more cost-effectively than a physical character can. Someone with Supernatural Strength and Skill is sitting on +2 weapons, +4 stress. A Wizard with Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and two refinements can easily reach +5 Control, +3 Power with Specializations and Focus items, and the gap widens the higher the refresh values get. Also, Weapons generally have an initial weapon value of 2 or 3, while magic generally starts at 4-5 at Submerged and above.

Basically, I don't think the Skill powers really rival magic in terms of raw damage output, it just closes the gap. As of now, the only real way a physically focused character can match a combat focused Wizard in terms of damage is to take an Item of Power.

Also, in case those last two paragraphs came off as overly critical, this is not me saying "Grrrr, Taran, you are so naive!", I just think you brought up a valid concern and wished to give my opinion on it.



Wow, this became pretty long, but hopefully I avoided being long-winded.

[Sanctaphrax]

1. One With The Weapon.
This is similar to Superior Strength (YS 183) in that it doesn't count for attack and defense rolls, right? As in (assuming you have Supernatural Skill), you wouldn't add three to your weapons rolls claiming that your athletics modifies your weapons roll, right?.

It only benefits you in situations where a mundane character would be able to (or have to) use their other skill to modify their weapons roll.

So if your Athletics is restricting your attack and defence rolls because you're standing on a balance beam, then One With The Weapon will keep your Weapons from being reduced. But on a normal attack roll, where your Athletics doesn't matter, it does nothing.

2. Parry Everything/Perfect Defense
I'm not a fan of these, because Dodging gets moved to Weapons, I see very little incentive to take Speed powers, as (arguably) the most useful trapping has been moved elsewhere. Also, while deflecting bullets is awesome, how would you parry a fireball? Or a giant boulder? Or an explosion?

What if instead the three levels are thrown objects/"Slow" missile attacks (arrows are the only thing that comes to mind)/Bullets. The second level stinks but you see what I mean. I just think there are some things that are simply impossible to block with weapons, no matter how fast/dextrous you are. I think that these trappings step on the feet of the Speed Powers just a tad too much.

Of course it's impossible. If it was possible, it would just be a stunt. It works by magic.

Blocking an arrow with a sword isn't any more plausible than blocking a laser beam with a pocket knife, so I don't care to draw a distinction there.

Bear in mind that mechanically Parry Everything is just a stunt with supernatural flavouring. It's Footwork, but for Weapons and described in a supernatural way.

And I don't see why Skill Powers shouldn't step on the toes of Speed Powers a bit. Not every pair of Powers has to work well together.

3. Strike Like The Sunlight
I think this is very cool, and you are paying 6 refresh for the power at this point, but I'm unsure about the ability to make zone attacks on two separate zones with the ability to avoid any friendly fire that accompanies zone attacks. I like the ability to avoid hitting allies (as the user is merely moving from target to target instead just spinning in a circle haphazardly), but perhaps drop the ability to hit the second zone, and instead remove the -2 penalty on zone attacks. This still allows the user to clear out groups of people, but just not two zones worth of people.

There is no -2 penalty on zone attacks. That's a spellcasting thing.

Anyway, I don't think it matters much one way or the other. One zone, two zones, it's not usually a significant difference.

4.
Do you think you could expand these powers to Guns as well? As in, when taking the power the player can decide whether they want to apply it to Guns or Weapons? We've seen in movies people being able to shoot bullets out of the air, or blow away an entire room of people on a quick draw, and this power could be a good way to model a Kincaid type character.

You might have to tweak some of the wording on some of the trappings, but I think it could work nicely, what do you think?

It could work quite well, with a few minor tweaks.

Also, here's my two cents on a couple of points you guys were talking about.Well the simplest way to prevent this would just be to not allow your player to take the Mythic level of this skill, or at least not at lower refresh levels.

No sense banning a Power when you can balance it. A Chest Deep character with Mythic Strength isn't overpowered, just overspecialized. I'd like Mythic Skill to be similar.

All that being said, I'm not sure I like what these do to the game. They make a lot of stunts obsolete. Mostly pretty bad stunts, and True Aim does the same thing to some extent, but still...

[Sanctaphrax]

On an unrelated note, I would like opinions on these Powers:

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DRUIDIC SPELLCASTING [-1]
Description: You have spellcasting powers, but not the common wizardly sort. Your magic is the natural magic of the druid.
Skills Affected: Survival.
Effects:
Druidic Magic. At the beginning of each session, you may select up to four spells with a power no greater than your Survival skill. The spells may be Evocation or Thaumaturgy, but they must have a "natural" theme. You may use each spell once during that session, as though they were enchanted items.
Additional Power [-X]. For each additional point of Refresh invested in this Power, you may prepare and cast 4 additional spells.

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BARDIC SPELLCASTING [-1]
Description: You have spellcasting powers, but not the common wizardly sort. Your magic is the subtle magic of the bard.
Skills Affected: Performance.
Effects:
Bardic Magic. Design four Evocation or Evothaum spells that seem vaguely bard-y. You can cast four spells each session from among those spells. Their power is equal to your Performance skill, and you use Performance to control them as well. They don't cost mental stress.
Additional Knowledge [-X]. For each additional point of Refresh invested in this Power, you may design four additional spells that you may cast.
Additional Power [-X]. For each additional point of Refresh invested in this Power, you may cast four additional spells per session.