Thaumaturgy questions

[dlw32]

I'm seeing a bunch of places where people say "a temporary aspect like that is always a minimum of 3 shifts". Just wondering why that is... I don't mean metaphysically... Is there a calculation in there somewhere?

I love the books, there's all kinds of flavor in there... I would have like a few formulae as well though...

[CMEast]

I used to be a hard-liner when it came to thaumaturgy, thinking even the most basic spells take too much preparation time to use in a conflict. However, I was persuaded in these forums that it's possible to be a little flexible on this, simply because it just isn't a realistic option in a fight. You can do far more with evocation, or with almost any other power, in a conflict than you can with a ritual. It's slow and clunky and inefficient, only small spells can be done (due to being limited by Lore) and even then it generally takes more than one exchange to cast and it's easy for the enemy to interrupt the basic preparations made.

It's also hard to abuse; many spell effects require special components and casting the ritual mid-conflict wouldn't change that. Targeting an enemy might require an appropriate ingredient like blood, hair etc even if they do have a high enough lore.

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dlw32 - it states on page 252 of Your Story
"Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines the required number of shifts."

[luminos]

@CME
most thaumaturgic effects are more powerful, souped up versions of the stuff evocation can do with the same number of shifts, and don't give you mental stress.  That is why you don't make such exceptions.  Thaumaturgic aspects applied to the self last at least a scene for the same number Evocation needs for it to last a round, with stress.  Wards give a block value and rebound damage, for the same number of shifts for Evocation blocks that don't rebound damage, don't last for very long, and cost stress.  I could go on for a while on this theme.  It is very easy to abuse allowing rapid thaumaturgy, and it goes against both the spirit and letter of the rules.  Not to mention, it makes some of the bonues from sponsored magic meaningless.

[greycouncilmember]

So basically I guess I can't really effectively cast it to stick around for a whole day without a good amount of prep work and potentially fate points.  if my character has a lore of 4 and a thaumaturgy bonus of +2, I can channel up to 6 shifts without prep.  It seems like the spell as it is would be 3 base +5 duration = 8 total.  If I leave it at 6 it would last only a few hours.  I guess if I have a sufficient amount of time I could cast this before a decent combat but otherwise it's not very practical.

[Ophidimancer]

Actually, I have a question about your luck spell.  How, exactly, did you envision it manifesting?  Is it meant to boost someone's active efforts?  Is it meant to shield them from bad luck?  Is it meant to just work at an opportune moment?  Mechanically do you want the maneuver to allow multiple free tags, or would you require the blessed person to spend Fate Points?

[greycouncilmember]

Actually, I have a question about your luck spell.  How, exactly, did you envision it manifesting?  Is it meant to boost someone's active efforts?  Is it meant to shield them from bad luck?  Is it meant to just work at an opportune moment?  Mechanically do you want the maneuver to allow multiple free tags, or would you require the blessed person to spend Fate Points?

Great questions!  I actually just envisioned it as a luck of the moment where the recipient could basically get a +2 to a check of some kind by tagging the aspect.  After they tag it, it's gone.  You never know when a free bonus could change the tide in battle.

[Ophidimancer]

Great questions!  I actually just envisioned it as a luck of the moment where the recipient could basically get a +2 to a check of some kind by tagging the aspect.  After they tag it, it's gone.  You never know when a free bonus could change the tide in battle.

Oh good, that makes it easier than I thought.  You just want a simple Maneuver.  Your estimate of being able to easily cast a luck spell that lasts a couple of hours is basically correct.  I think that's still pretty useful.  With your Lore and the complexity bonus from your focus item you don't need very much prep time, you can probably set up your blessing ritual in a few minutes, then take a few exchanges to cast the spell on each of your friends a few hours before a conflict.  It's a decent buff and costs you nothing.

[Tush Hog]

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dlw32 - it states on page 252 of Your Story
"Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines the required number of shifts."

I thought that Good +3 was the default, but dlw32's post made me go back and read the thaumaturgy maneuver section again. It actually reads differently from the Evocation maneuver section.

It reads to me like placing aspects on scenes have the same difficulty as a simple action. Doesn't default to Good. Also, placing aspects on targets depends completely on their defending skill which could be lower than Good.  So placing aspects on willing targets is much easier as they can choose not to defend. Looks like on p296 the dreamless sleep spell backs that up. Probably 1 or 2 shifts for the aspect and the rest on duration.
 

[CMEast]

@Luminos - Aha, I hadn't really thought of it like that. Sponsored magic has just gone up in my estimation too. Especially if, as Tush Hog below writes, aspects cost less too. That changes it a lot.

I'd like to think that makes my original assessment of it all correct, but being right through ignorance doesn't count . Luckily, I'm not a GM, and I won't try to be until I've got the rules totally memorised.

[Wyrdrune]

So basically I guess I can't really effectively cast it to stick around for a whole day without a good amount of prep work and potentially fate points.  if my character has a lore of 4 and a thaumaturgy bonus of +2, I can channel up to 6 shifts without prep.  It seems like the spell as it is would be 3 base +5 duration = 8 total.  If I leave it at 6 it would last only a few hours.  I guess if I have a sufficient amount of time I could cast this before a decent combat but otherwise it's not very practical.

you could make a declaration for +2. one of my player's characters has a tote bag with misc stuff with her all the time, at the beginning of each adventure she gives me a list of the items in there, which ranges from a raven's feather to dirt from a lake shore. let's say the character want's to control/summon a flight of ravens for some reason. the player declares that she uses the feather in her ritual (which may be gone then, maybe it has to be burned), and gets a much needed boost to match the complexity.

[greycouncilmember]

I thought that Good +3 was the default, but dlw32's post made me go back and read the thaumaturgy maneuver section again. It actually reads differently from the Evocation maneuver section.

It reads to me like placing aspects on scenes have the same difficulty as a simple action. Doesn't default to Good. Also, placing aspects on targets depends completely on their defending skill which could be lower than Good.  So placing aspects on willing targets is much easier as they can choose not to defend. Looks like on p296 the dreamless sleep spell backs that up. Probably 1 or 2 shifts for the aspect and the rest on duration.

So now it seems like it could go either way.  Is it really fair if I choose not to resist something that you still need to beat a target number?  what would make the dreamless sleep spell different? 

[Tush Hog]

So now it seems like it could go either way.  Is it really fair if I choose not to resist something that you still need to beat a target number?  what would make the dreamless sleep spell different? 

I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.

[greycouncilmember]

I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.

argh sorry please disregard this...