Thaumaturgy questions

[greycouncilmember]

So if the spell lasted a scene and cost 3 shifts for the single use manuever which is less than lore how long would that take to cast?  Would it be just a few exchanges to get the power or would it be longer?

Btw, this helps huge.  this forum is the best! 

[CMEast]

Well as it's equal to or less than your lore, you can get straight to casting it without any additional preparation.

Casting is a little controversial on the forum actually. Some would rule that as you have everything on you; and as it only has a low cost; you could probably cast it like evocation. Others will say that you'd still need a basic casting area laid out before you can cast it which might require either a full exchange or a supplemental action to set up.

If I were your GM, I'd let you cast it during a conflict in one round if you set up the circle as a supplemental action, or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).

[mostlyawake]

or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).

Because I like thaumaturgy remaining separate from evocation, this is similar to what I go with (and what we see harry do in the books a lot).  One round to scribe a circle, one round to cast.  We handle the taggable aspect by calling the circle a Lore declaration, since I give it  a difficulty of +1 and all of our casters would have a really hard time failing that roll.  I'm not really sure if this is supported by the rules (which seem to give little indication as to what "casting without preparation" means), but it's supported by Harry.

[CMEast]

I think that makes perfect sense mostlyawake. I would allow someone to do the same as a supplemental action, but then they can't use it as a taggable aspect (my rules ) and they get a -1 when rolling to control the spell due to the supplemental action.

[mostlyawake]

I think that makes perfect sense mostlyawake. I would allow someone to do the same as a supplemental action, but then they can't use it as a taggable aspect (my rules ) and they get a -1 when rolling to control the spell due to the supplemental action.

Actually I might be fine by that too, as in my rules they wouldn't get the taggable aspect either (they aren't taking an action to make a declaration).   

[greycouncilmember]

This makes sense to me but what if the circle was cast/completed and given a whole round so there was no penalty?  Could this spell be cast repeatedly on each member of the party with the same circle?  Would there be an additional amount of prep work each spell?  I've thought a lot about using this to help the group i'm in since my character isn't' much of a caster, kinda a background character.  I'd only need to gather up 3 shifts of power for each casting/target and it could potentially last an entire day.  What do you think?

Well as it's equal to or less than your lore, you can get straight to casting it without any additional preparation.

Casting is a little controversial on the forum actually. Some would rule that as you have everything on you; and as it only has a low cost; you could probably cast it like evocation. Others will say that you'd still need a basic casting area laid out before you can cast it which might require either a full exchange or a supplemental action to set up.

If I were your GM, I'd let you cast it during a conflict in one round if you set up the circle as a supplemental action, or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).

I don't understand what you mean with the taggable aspect portion.  By taking the time to create the circle, it can give you a free aspect you can use to gather power?  that seems pretty powerful to me.

[luminos]

The process of doing thaumaturgy is very different from that of doing evocation.  Even if you have everything you need to do the spell, you still have to go through an elaborate ritual, even if its simple enough to be done in the wizards mind.  Because of this, it should take at least 5 minutes to do any kind of thaumaturgy.  I mean seriously, if you could do thaumaturgy in combat, what would the point of the speed and methods of evocation part of sponsored magic be?  

If its fast enough to be done in the middle of a fight, its evocation, and you get the stress for doing it.

[greycouncilmember]

so the 5 minutes would be done with each casting then.  That still seems reasonable for me.  An hour to do 6 people wouldn't be that big a deal.  I could just do the rolls to gather the power and in case I fail a roll but not need to roleplay that whole scene.  Or is that not in keeping with the spirit of the system?  I like to think of it like buffing up for a fight.  if a spell is going to last most of the day then that's something my character could do as part of his morning rituals.  It's just a thought though, I'm not committed to this. 

[Ophidimancer]

I'm going to agree with Luminos here.  Thaumaturgy really can't be set up in combat.  Remember that "Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more," and I would say a minute is a lot longer than an exchange.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm going to agree with Luminos here.  Thaumaturgy really can't be set up in combat.  Remember that "Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more," and I would say a minute is a lot longer than an exchange.

This. I've allowed a whole one Thaumaturgy spell in combat thus far, and I allowed that one only with a Fate Point and only directly duplicating an Evocation effect (the character in question lacked Evocation, but needed to redirect some energy from a previous Thaumaturgical effect of his, fast...it seemed fun and thematic so I bent the rules). I'd certainly never allow something not normally doable with Evocation in combat's time scale without Sponsored Magic or some other extremely good justification.

[greycouncilmember]

I'm not looking to cast this in combat ever!  Thanks for clarifying that though.  I just thought it might be a nice benefit to my party to give them a little free taggable aspect.  I'd be ok if the spell took a minimum of 5 minutes because in a group of 6 that's still only 30 minutes to give the benefit.  I just wanted to be sure it was within the spirit of the game and not an abuse...

[mostlyawake]

The rpg books give no reference for how long a turn is for thaumaturgy, even when just talking about adding power to it each turn.  However, Dresden is able at a few different times to quickly chalk out a circle - we get the impression that it takes him less than a minute or so to do so. 

So it really depends on how long you are equating a combat action to: if you see a combat turn as 6-10 seconds, like most other games, then you could be looking at 6-8 actions to get  thaumaturgy spell off in a minute, which is plenty of time to get dead in. 

I'm kind of on the fence, here... I think it should be kept separate than evocation (not instant), but that 5 minutes is way too long to really represent what Dresden does. Then again, whatever you choose will also represent how long it takes him to make a potion, which always takes Dresden hours... so a perfect representation is impossible.

[luminos]

Chalking out a circle is not the same as full on Thaumaturgy.  First of all, its something anyone can do.  Secondly, to create any of the kinds of effects talked about in the thaumaturgy section, we always see a much more complex process than drawing out a simple circle.

[greycouncilmember]

I didn't meant to start a controversy.  Whether it's one minute or ten minutes it's feasible for my character to cast the spell out of combat for however long it takes to give the benefit to several party members for use within combat.  Being within your Lore you don't have to worry about doing anything outside of the spell casting process to actually have the desired effect. 

[Da_Gut]

Yeah, the times when I can recall him chalking a circle "in combat" he was actually just really close to being in combat, or was pressed for time. So my take is, he was using evocation, and just took a round or two to create a "magic circle" tag, which he then free tagged to help with his spell. Remember control isn't his forte.