Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals

[Doc Nova]

Naw, not broken at all...

I do hope the sarcasm is clearly heard there.

Well illustrated Gruff.

Well, I go back to my original statement of fun and story and will go with the simple ruling of "nope"!

[Belial666]

On the other hand, you also have evocation or channeling, don't you? Say, you can also do six-shift evocations, right?
A six-shifts maneuer spell automatically applies TWO aspects on a non-opposing target (i.e. you). And as you have a 4-box mental stress track, you can do it four times per scene.
So a wizard uses his own magic to apply EIGHT aspects on himself, which he then tags in the ritual or potion for +16 shifts. Enjoy. (technically, you have to tag the aspects immediately upon casting, not all at once. But that's not a problem; rituals don't have to be continious)


So... recovery powers for rituals? Who needs them?

[GruffAndTumble]

I didn't know a spell maneuver could add a second aspect. Page ref?

Also, the book's state that Evocation can leave behind a magical signature that interferes with the delicate nature of most thaumaturgical rituals.

(click to show/hide)

Specifically, Harry refuses to use such a minor spell as Flickum Bicus to light ritual candles in Turn Coat and states this as the reason. We also see him lighting ritual candles with matches in Proven Guilty (I think--that wasn't the book I was reading last night  ) but I don't recall the explanation at the time.

[Nomad]

My 2 Cents;
I know I am probably wrong (rule wise) but I would treat the whole ritual as 1 scene no matter how long it takes and how many breaks you have.  The guy (or gal) that is holding the ritual together needs to focus on the ritual full time so there will be a drain even while resting and I don't really think you can pause a spell and go to sleep (Unless the player comes up with a good explanation; A construction like Little Chicago or The Quartz Pocket Nuke can be done in stages but a death spell can'T ). I would treat Recovery powers as extenders to maximum rituel time. 


Here is a funny thought though, Suppose you have a caster and a helper, ie "sacrifice" with recovery. How many times can you "sacrifice/torture" her during a day to fuel your spell ?

[toturi]

Rituals are explicitly stated not to be limited to a single scene of prep time. Taking extra scenes is a listed method of reaching the Complexity. And the Declarations made are generally described as separate "mini-scenes" as well. Assuming your GM imposes a maximum of one scene for your ritual every three hours (a steeper restriction than I would impose normally), a character with Inhuman Recovery can pull 18 shifts out of that power alone in an average workday, and still have a couple of hours to relax before getting a solid night's rest.

--First, inflict a minor consequence on yourself. Shrug it off. 2 shifts.
--Inflict a second minor consequence on yourself. It be removed at the end of the scene, by being reduced below mild. 2 shifts
--Inflict a moderate consequence on yourself. It begins recovery immediately, and is treated as if it were Mild, removing itself at the end of the next scene. 4 shifts (End Scene)
--Skip a scene. 1 Shift. All Consequence slots are cleared. (End Scene)
--Repeat above steps. You have now grabbed +18 Complexity in twelve hours. You may add your Lore to this and begin channeling the majority of effects immediately. If you're willing to stay up late, you can go up to 27+Lore shifts without much trouble, which is often enough for an outright Death Spell, Victor Sells style.

Oh, and Inhuman Recovery helps you stay awake longer too. Spend a couple days opening and reopening wounds, and you will be able to level a city block or two, bind (not contain. Bind!) lesser heavyweights to your will, or unravel the outer wards of Edinburgh.

And that's just with Inhuman Recovery. Upgrade it to Supernatural recovery, and you throw around nigh-infinite complexity rituals, and do it relatively quickly.

A character with Mythic Recovery, Thaumaturgy, and a week of time off could pull off a Ritual easily exceeding 100 complexity. That's enough to break through a maximized Legendary Discipline roll and Take Out (fully consequences bypassed) a character who has the Mental Equivalent of Mythic Toughness with FIFTY FOUR shifts to spare for things like extended duration. I suspect Mab herself could be enslaved to the with of such a ritual, at least for a while.

This is great! I'll suggest this to my players and encourage them to use it.

[CMEast]

Sacrifices should involve some sort of real sacrifice. I wouldn't allow a wizard power for trimming his nails or cutting his hair and I wouldn't allow a wizard with mythic regeneration extra power for chopping his hand off, or any other consequence which won't exist a scene later.

As to prep time taking longer than a scene, I agree that you can spend multiple scenes chasing rare ingredients. When it comes to drawing power from sacrifice, I think that should be done in the same scene as the ritual itself and the ritual should only take one scene.

Also, the rules actually talk about skipping scenes rather than taking extra scenes, or using declarations to declare 'mini-scenes' like 'laying out the circle' or 'getting porn for bob'. These aren't genuine additional scenes, just an extension of the main scene for the ritual.

[GruffAndTumble]

@Nomad: It's possible to interpret the ritual preparation as a single scene by some readings, and while I wouldn't, I won't argue against it as a valid point of view. But even in a single scene, allowing consequences that last a scene at most will lead to +6/+10/+16 shifts, depending on your Recovery level. It's hideously strong mechanically, and as CMEast discusses, thematically inappropriate.

@Toturi: Are you trying to be sarcastic? I can't imagine any GM willingly inflicting this on themselves, but sarcasm is not something that typed words carry well. It's generally bad forum etiquette to make sarcastic comments without some kind of major indicator of intent.

[Tsunami]

As to prep time taking longer than a scene, I agree that you can spend multiple scenes chasing rare ingredients. When it comes to drawing power from sacrifice, I think that should be done in the same scene as the ritual itself and the ritual should only take one scene.

Also, the rules actually talk about skipping scenes rather than taking extra scenes, or using declarations to declare 'mini-scenes' like 'laying out the circle' or 'getting porn for bob'. These aren't genuine additional scenes, just an extension of the main scene for the ritual.

^this, I totally agree with.

And now my thoughts (because i wrote them down before i read CM's post *g*):

The mini scenes are a seperate thing from taking consequence. And Skipping scenes doesn't give you time to recover, you skipped those scenes, so they don't count for you.
Consequences would be something you'd need to take or inflict while actually casting the Ritual. It's the quick and dirty method that requires no additional time. Like when Harry poured some of his blood out to call forth the Spirit of Demonreach, or when Victor sells drew power from the Beckitts (mental consequences here, but still).

Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense.

And since casting the ritual is one scene, no matter how long it takes, you would not be able to recover while casting.

[toturi]

@Toturi: Are you trying to be sarcastic? I can't imagine any GM willingly inflicting this on themselves, but sarcasm is not something that typed words carry well. It's generally bad forum etiquette to make sarcastic comments without some kind of major indicator of intent.

Oh no, I was not being sarcastic. I do not see this as inflicting something on myself. The game isn't GM vs players. If I can find something that helps my players overcome my antagonists, I certainly will point them towards it.

[GoldenH]

I don't see any problem doing this, since high Conviction/etc give you extra Minor Consequences instead of stress boxes, and all you need is an excuse to start healing - hit the hospital or have a bud around to do first aid after doing your bloody ritual and you're all back to normal. What's the big deal, having Supernatural Recovery? You can use your single moderate consequence? pfft. Being able to heal some of your consequences during a turn? pretty nifty - but not more nifty than just having more consequences via a Stunt. Being able to heal without an excuse? It's okay but not game breaking.

I've seen plenty of movies or whatever where the BBEG powers a dark ritual by chopping off his hand or opening up his arm only to have it heal a moment later. Psychic or Social trama would be awesome too. All the consequence is, is justification for another maneuver.

[Belial666]

Wizards don't need an excuse to start healing: they automatically heal given time, courtesy of their Wizard's Constitution.

[GoldenH]

sure but how much time? you could say you only start healing a day after the injury and that'd fit the text just as well.

[Belial666]

They heal in the standard recovery time depending on the consequence:

Mild is until the end of the next scene
Moderate is until the end of the next session
Severe is until the end of the next scenario (or few sessions, as you prefer)

[Doc Nova]

Ahh, now that strikes as a possible alternative.  Since the recovery powers stitch up physical ills quickly, if the wizard were to take psychic or social consequences due to self-sacrifice...hmmmm...interesting.  They wouldn't reco er as quickly, so the sacrifice would still be a sacrifice and not a cheat.  That might be a solid solution, at least for my game table should this come up.

[GruffAndTumble]

@Tsunami: I can see limiting Consequence taking to the scene in which you cast the spell, even under my interpretation of the rules. That, combined with the potential for rituals in situations where the next (or even the same) scene is combat could mean Recovery powers don't break ritual casting.

@Toturi: I never once advocated adversarial GMing. Please do not ascribe opinions to me. I expressed the opinion that allowing a starting character the power to pull infinite complexity rituals together and solve any task in the entire game was broken--and I don't mean mechanically. I meant it breaks the story and makes things not fun. However, if you enjoy the idea of your players enslaving Mab, Titania, and Ferrovax, and using them to solve all their problems without lifting a finger post-binding, and your players like it too...more power to you. The game is there to have fun. However, given most of us paid money so we could have rules to guide our fun, I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the majority of us finds the concept of making use of bizarre loopholes so that you never need to bother rolling dice past the first session a little less than ideal, as I do.