Author Topic: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?  (Read 10543 times)

Offline YuriPup

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4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« on: July 17, 2010, 04:14:19 PM »
"These aren't the Droids you're looking for."

"Move along."

Offline stitchy1503

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 04:37:51 PM »
I would have to say the jedi mind trick is a blatent violation of the laws of magic...someone needs to get the wardens.
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Offline CMEast

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 05:23:31 PM »
I think it's a grey area, it's not so much mind control as it is a retroactive veil. If he'd ordered them to never look for another droid again then that would definitely break the 4th law.

In the same way, setting some one on fire isn't breaking the 1st law unless they happen to die from it.

... Not the best analogy but you get my point :)

Offline Rel Fexive

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 05:53:30 PM »
"These aren't the Droids you're looking for."

"Move along."

He totally mind controlled that guy.  Obi gets snicker-snacked.  Good thing he doesn't actually have to worry about the Laws, then...
THE DOCTOR: I'll do a thing.
RIVER SONG: What thing?
THE DOCTOR: I don't know. It's a thing in progress. Respect the thing!

Offline Mal_Luck

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 06:40:10 PM »
I think I remember Harry commenting that's how some of the 4th law breakers start out. I can't remember who he was talking to, probably Murphy.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 08:27:08 PM »
Yeah, that's definitely a 4th Law violation in the DF universe...but the Star Wars universe has very different rules.

Offline Scapey

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 09:37:21 PM »
Yeah, that's definitely a 4th Law violation in the DF universe...but the Star Wars universe has very different rules.
Dresdenverse > starwarsverse.

Offline Vash the white

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 10:18:14 PM »
Even if the jedi did not like to have people do that he was the last jedi, other then yoda who was alive (other then vader, who wasnt a jedi, he had fallen, some say he was just a dark jedi, but he was obivously a sith since he was knighted by another sith and given a tittle, so.,.. yeah. and im pretty sure that jedi can do that if it is for a good cause.
In game tense yeas he broke the laws.
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Offline Tsunami

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 07:56:54 AM »
Proven Guilty - US Paperback p.33

“It’s the Fourth Law of Magic,” I said. “You aren’t allowed to control the mind of another human. But… hell, it’s one of the first things a lot of these stupid kids try—the old Jedi mind trick. Sometimes they start with maybe getting homework overlooked by a teacher or convincing their parents to buy them a car. They come into their magic when they’re maybe fifteen or so, and by the time they’re seventeen or eighteen they’ve got a full -grown talent.”

So Yeah, in the DFU he broke the Law...

FutureGameDesigner

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 08:04:22 AM »
Totally a violation of the 4th Law...but even if Obi-Wan existed in the D-verse, it's not like the Wardens could do anything about it...Obi would mop the floor with them.

However, a type of veil that obscures not vision but recognition is certainly viable and legal, I think.  Instead of veiling yourself, you veil their mind.  No rearranging, no invasion, no tweaking.  Cocoon their mind and set the cocoon's filter to suit your needs.  As long as you don't directly rewire or rewrite their brain or mind, or otherwise do anything directly or indirectly invasive, you're not violating the 4th Law.  The Wardens won't care and will lop your head off anyway, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the spiritual consequences to your soul.  I imagine with Molly's talent for both neuromancy AND veils, she'd be absolutely stellar at such a spell.

Offline Nicodemus Archleone

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 08:23:17 AM »
Totally a violation of the 4th Law...but even if Obi-Wan existed in the D-verse, it's not like the Wardens could do anything about it...Obi would mop the floor with them.

However, a type of veil that obscures not vision but recognition is certainly viable and legal, I think.  Instead of veiling yourself, you veil their mind.  No rearranging, no invasion, no tweaking.  Cocoon their mind and set the cocoon's filter to suit your needs.  As long as you don't directly rewire or rewrite their brain or mind, or otherwise do anything directly or indirectly invasive, you're not violating the 4th Law.  The Wardens won't care and will lop your head off anyway, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the spiritual consequences to your soul.  I imagine with Molly's talent for both neuromancy AND veils, she'd be absolutely stellar at such a spell.

I´d say that is incorrect. If you´ve read Changes it would seem likely that the black staff would drop Obi-Wan dead before he could do  anything at all.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 08:45:34 AM »
I´d say that is incorrect. If you´ve read Changes it would seem likely that the black staff would drop Obi-Wan dead before he could do  anything at all.

Yeah, even going by earlier books, Wardens could casually disable most Jedi with magic, then behead them. Well, if they're the ones on offense anyway. I mean, Jedi are scary...but Wizards are on a whole different level of badass if they have prep-time to work their magic.

Offline sjmcc13

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 09:21:34 AM »
I mean, Jedi are scary...but Wizards are on a whole different level of badass if they have prep-time to work their magic.
I alwys figured the trick against a Jedi would be area/spray weapons, something that they are not going to be able block all of it at once with just a single "blade". A unrestrained fire blast like Harry's should only lost a bit of its effectiveness and penetrate to kill. for that matter I always figured that a shotgun should do the trick, and look how common those are in the books.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 09:57:37 AM »
Well, the reason Jedi can do that whole parrying thing is actually precognition...so one assumes that vs. something like that they'd dodge rather than block. But there's only so much you can effectively dodge, and I do agree with you in general.

If I were statting up Jedi for the DFRPG (as I mentioned in another thread), I'd give them a power allowing them to use Discipline for defense on Physical atacks, and to attack with a lightsaber (-1 total, based on the cost of A Few Seconds Ahead), and probably Channeling (Spirit) for actual Force power use. I might tack on modified versions of Guide My Hand and/or Righteousness based on Discipline as well.

But in any case, none of that's really close to enough to take most full Wardens head-to head.

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Re: 4th Law Question: Did Obi-One Break It?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 07:26:48 PM »
Jedi can still use their force powers, and you can do vastly more with it than what most games have included (one reason why I'd like to see Star Wars in Fate), and if Wardens get to keep their swords, then Obi-Wan gets to keep his lightsaber.  Wardens can't sneak up on him, can't outmaneuver him, he can still deflect spells with the Force, and their swords are useless as offensive or defensive weapons against a lightsaber.

Obi couldn't take on more than a couple at a time, maybe only one, but one-on-one...Obi would own them.  He's faster, smarter, precognitive and has a weapon they couldn't handle safely that can literally destroy their swords and they can't shield against it.  Then he's got a broadly useful form of telekinesis that they can't do anything about unless he uses it offensively, which he won't do.  Thaumaturgy won't help them, because if they get prep time, he gets time.  He'd sense that it'd be a bad idea before doing anything that might allow them access to a connection with him, and he'd sense any kind of "landmine" spells before getting anywhere near them.  Area spells can be dodged, and Jedi can do so earlier and more quickly than anyone else (unless under heavy crossfire like in ep 2).  Ray-type spells can be deflected with the lightsaber (because there's no way they can deflect a blast from a heavy laser turret but not a dinky Warden.  No way is a Warden's beam is more powerful than a plasma-based version of a howitzer, not if directly deflecting a bullet from a handgun takes so much juice...they just wouldn't have the power, not even McCoy with the Blackstaff).

All that said, a single Warden isn't enough to take out Obi, though two might do it.  Any Senior Council member should be able to do it, just because they'd be less direct with their attacks and defenses.  Old Wardens (even the improvisational ones) are too linear to do anything worthwhile, and young Wardens just don't carry the experience or metaphysical oomph.  Wardens are sledgehammers, not scalpels...not even Luccio, for all her apparent finesse in combat.  Wardens are the Judge Dredd of the metaphysical world...and that's a severe weakness.  They're like Sardukar, Jedi are closer to Fremen.  Heck, Luccio's only saving grace was that she got mind-controlled and ended up having an affair with Dresden...did a world of good for her perspective.  Before, she'd have been a threat to a Jedi Master, but still would've lost with her uncompromising attitude.  Jedi train specifically to fight Sith who think exactly that way.

Ultimately, Yoda could take them all, period...like a little green buddhist psychic ninja with a laser sword.

I say all this but I freely admit that while I like the ships, the sabers, some characters, and some Jedi philosophy, I don't really care at all for the overall story of Star Wars.  Lucas did much better with Indiana Jones, and I think that was mostly thanks to Spielberg.  George Lucas is what M. Night Shyamalan could've become if only he hadn't made his movies so dull.

Your forgetting their ability to augment their physical abilities to levels just shy of the "Inhuman" series of powers, if not equal to them.

On a final note...the spellchecker supports Jedi...but not Sith, Sardukar, or Fremen?  WTF?