Throwing people

[KOFFEYKID]

For objects (like say a car) I'd say its a supplemental action to pick it up, and then you can throw using weapons, as long as your might is high enough to pick it up (dont roll might, just use the ranks in the skill + modifiers from stunts/powers).

[JosephKell]

I will try to talk of skill uses by referring to the trapping.  This assumes no stunts to move trappings were taken, but I do highlight one case (moving Distance Weaponry to Might) because anytime the "modifying/aiding/restricting" skill for a situation had a trapping moved to it, the modifying/aiding/restricting skill makes no difference (it is neither higher nor lower).

Actually, this brings up an interesting question.  Do Skills modify, or do Trappings modify?  If Distance Weaponry were modified by Lifting Things, then strength powers (and Hulking Size) make it easier.  Well the Strength powers specifically say they give +1/2/3 for grapple and for skills where Might would aid (such as throwing a person).

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Well I think throwing people should be a (default) Weapon:0.  It is effectively deciding on your turn to stop grappling and throw the guy.  So you are no longer doing a block (no reason to suffer a -1)

But you roll Distance Weaponry vs the target's Dodging or Wrestling trapping (so default Athletics or Might).  On success (tie) the target is thrown up to one zone.  Any excess effect is physical stress (as usual).

If you throw one target at another, they can try to dodge the same Distance Weaponry check you made to throw the "projectile."

If the thrower has a stunt or power that would increase the damage, it would apply (such as Inhuman Strength for +2).  But it would also give the normal power's bonus +1/2/3.

It seems the most consistent with the rules.  It has an attack trapping, a defense trapping, and comparable damage to Fists.  And the opportunity cost of having to grapple a target first makes up for the chance to later hit two guys with one action.  Although I can see an argument for throwing at another target a "Spray attack" (against the throwee and the target).  Perhaps that is reason enough to bring the -1 supplemental action penalty that is normally apart of a grapple back in.

As an alternative, I allow a player to forgo damage to instead try to do a maneuver (at -1 since you are moving a foe upto one zone and doing a maneuver).  But this maneuver could be an attempt to apply it to two targets (the projectile and whoever/whatever you hit).  If a player can justify it, I might allow them to hit more than one target with the "projectile.

I can definitely seen situations where scene aspects can arise.  Such as throwing someone into a bank of free standing flood lights to create darkness.  Or throwing a vampire through the curtained window (during the day) to add "Sunshine" to a zone in the scene.  In this case they need to at least tie the projectile on the Distance Weaponry check and get at least a Good result to make an aspect (higher result is more sticky as per usual).  I am wondering how to use up "Sunshine" (perhaps in that case it is removing an aspect of "Curtained Window" instead of adding "Sunshine").

However, since Strength Powers give a flat bonus to Might for grappling, I don't think it stacks with Wrestler (which is good for Pure Mortals).

Wait, isn't "throwing someone" just a maneuver that compels them to move next turn?  Sort of like the example of a spell that shunts aside enemies to make an escape path does an aspect?

[Papa Gruff]

"Quod est?"

Sorry @ JosephKell can't make sense of what you wrote...

[Dumbledresden]

I'd say we usually do, but neither of us is listening properly to what the other is trying to communicate.

Yeah, you do...^^

I like CMEasts solution, too, but what happens if you throw an opponent into or onto something harmful? Does that deal any form of additional damage, like a weapon?

[Papa Gruff]

Yeah, you do...^^

I like CMEasts solution, too, but what happens if you throw an opponent into or onto something harmful? Does that deal any form of additional damage, like a weapon?

I guess the above mentioned rules for hazardous environments apply in this case and damage gets dealt that is in line with these rules.

[JosephKell]

Once more without internal monologue.

First, throwing someone needs to be consistent with Fists (and the rest of the game), so it should default to Weapon:0.  If a thrower has a Strength power or a stunt (specific to throwing someone?) then it would increase it as per usual.  Claws wouldn't factor in.  Basically, effect translates into damage.

The act of throwing would require a grapple to be already initiated, and the thrower would roll Distance Weaponry (normally a trapping of Weapons) modified by Grappling (normally a trapping of Might, remember the supernatural strength powers can upgrade this by +1/2/3).  Opposed by the "projectile's" Dodging or Grappling score (normally trappings of Athletics and Might respectively).  Since throwing someone ends the grapple, this isn't a supplemental action to the block, therefore there isn't a -1 penalty to the roll.

If the goal is to throw one person into another, you roll once and compare it to both targets (designated "projectile" and "target").  If you fail against the projectile, the whole attempt fails.  The physical stress each takes is determined by your roll verses their roll.  So it is possible to deal 0 physical stress to the projectile while still doing 3 physical stress to the target.  The target can defend with Dodging or Grappling (in this case grappling is "catching" the projectile in such a way that the target doesn't get hurt irregardless of the projectile's well being).

For example.  Rocko, the Trollblooded Changeling, currently has Jimmy in an arm lock.  Lester, Rocko's boss, tells him to get rid of Jimmy in the dumpster as a warning.

Rocko has Inhuman Strength and a Superb Might, and a Good Weapons.  Rocko's throwing people would start at Great (Good Weapons + modified by Might, Inhuman Strength makes it a +1 regardless of Might Score).

Jimmy, being a low level drug peddler, has Average Athletics and Mediocre Might.  So he'll try to resist with Athletics.

Rocko rolls a +1 for a Superb "throw" while Jimmy just gets a Great (+3 on 4dF isn't bad, but Rocko is just so good it doesn't matter) and flings poor Jimmy into the dumpster and Jimmy also suffers a 3 physical stress hit (Superb - Great + 2 Inhuman Strength).  Jimmy blacks out hearing Lester say, "And let that be a lesson."

Jimmy wakes to a bad of garbage exploding open on him, covering him with cold, discarded Chinese food from the restaurant next door.

If Rocko had Supernatural Strength instead of Inhuman Strength, the power would give a +2 bonus to Distance Weaponry instead of +1 (see Superlative Strength).  Mythic Strength would give +3 (see Supreme Strength).

Even if a stunt were taken to move Distance Weaponry to Might, I would still allow Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength to apply as it would've applied if the trapping weren't moved.

This does create a potential problem of giving a +1/2/3 to the roll and +2/4/6 to damage.  So perhaps the throwing damage should be dropped.

[Tsunami]

Yupp, thats basically where the discussion was leading.

I do agree on everything, except two things.

1.
I would not make throwing someone an attack using the Weapons skill.
Throwing people is an integral part of lots of Martial Arts, especially weaponless ones, so Fists would be the better choice here i think.
Actually using a Person as a Weapon to throw at someone else... that might be a Weapons application, but i think it's such a rare occurrence that it doesn't hurt to allow it to be done with Fists.

2.
There is no explicit distance weaponry bonus through strength Powers.
Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength modify how might would factor in when it modifies a skill, but there is no mention of Distance weaponry in particular.
So the +2/+4/+6 damage bonus from Strength Powers would be all you get, and thats perfectly in line with other Attacks, so no balance problem here.

[JosephKell]

Yupp, thats basically where the discussion was leading.

I do agree on everything, except two things.

1.
I would not make throwing someone an attack using the Weapons skill.
Throwing people is an integral part of lots of Martial Arts, especially weaponless ones, so Fists would be the better choice here i think.
Actually using a Person as a Weapon to throw at someone else... that might be a Weapons application, but i think it's such a rare occurrence that it doesn't hurt to allow it to be done with Fists.

Fists doesn't represent martial arts.  It represents unarmed strikes (Brawling) and unarmed blocks (Close Combat Defense).  Grappling represents holds (a block) and traditional throws.  Martial art throws are more about control than sending someone flying across a room.

In fact, I wouldn't consider a traditional throw to be ending the grapple.  It would be applying an aspect while continuing to grapple.

The fact is that nowhere does the book spell out which trapping covers the case of "throwing a target across zones."  Grappling definitely relates to dragging them across a zone.

The closest trappings for this case are Grappling and "throwing stuff" (which in DFrpg is the Distance Weaponry trapping).

This is why I keep trying to speak in terms of trappings, it is so that the example holds irregardless of stunts/powers.

2.
There is no explicit distance weaponry bonus through strength Powers.
Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength modify how might would factor in when it modifies a skill, but there is no mention of Distance weaponry in particular.
So the +2/+4/+6 damage bonus from Strength Powers would be all you get, and thats perfectly in line with other Attacks, so no balance problem here.

The game doesn't state what does or doesn't count as modifying.  It comes down to consensus.

For example: If a group of pure mortals were all in a basement room that was suddenly plunged into darkness, I would say that their attacks (and defense rolls, maybe I would allow players to substitute Stealth for the restriction of defense rolls, but that might require "full defense") are all restricted by their Passive Awareness (a trapping of Alertness).  An exception would be grappling.  The attacker would be restricted on their first check, the defender would likewise, but once a grapple is established, both parties have a good idea where the other is and the restriction as it relates to each other goes away.

No where in the book does it say Alertness should restrict anything in a situation of darkness.  That is just a connection I made.

In this case, the things to consider are Lifting Things and Grappling.

Does "Lifting Things" factor in for throwing someone?  Yes, but I would say it is a "restriction" factor.  Being able to easily lift a 250 pound bag of whatever onto your shoulder probably means your ability to lift won't hurt you when trying to chuck a 200 pound drunk out of a bar.  But it probably doesn't make you better (that is what "restricts" means, see YS 214).

But Grappling definitely would modify the situation.  A bad grappler is going to have trouble controlling a person long enough to throw them, but being good at grappling would help.  So it can help or hinder.  So I am saying "Grappling modifies throwing someone across a room in the case that Grappling isn't the trapping to use in the first place."

Which means...
a.  If you would use Grappling then Bruising/Bludgeoning/Unstoppable Strength gives in for the +1/2/3.
b.  Or if you would use Distance Weaponry (modified by Might) then Might modifies and Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength gives a +1/2/3.

Both give +1/2/3.  And THAT is the balance concern starts to arise.  Getting a +1/2/3 on the roll and +2/4/6 bonus effect (assuming success) is like getting +3/6/9 (when successful).

But there are balancing factors: 1.  You need an appropriate aspect on the target to start the grapple (which might mean placing a maneuver, which takes an exchange action).  2.  You use one exchange (of no damage) to start the grapple.  3.  You can finally throw (assuming they don't escape before this point).  So being able to throw one person at another and get an effective 3/6/9 isn't so bad since you use a minimum of 2 exchange actions (at most 3) to do damage twice.

There is no question that Might (grappling) is involved with someone's ability to throw another person.  Either directly (by being the skill trapping) or indirectly (by modifying).

Basically this comes down to personal taste.  Grappling or Throwing Stuff (distance weaponry).

When you are talking about using someone as an over-sized javelin, it seems to fall into Distance Weaponry (call it "Distance Throwing" or "Distance Hurling" if you like) than the more conventional Judo throws.  That is why I lean towards Distance Weaponry.

But I do reiterate that it is a personal choice.

[KOFFEYKID]

I am inclined to strongly disagree that a thrown person should be a weapon 0. If I am strong enough to chuck somebody a full zone (IE across four lanes of traffic, for example), whoever gets hit by that is going to take some damage from the inherent weight of the chuckee.

If I can throw a car at somebody and give the car a weapon rating greater than zero, i should be able to throw steve and give him a weapon rating greater than zero.