Throwing people

[Papa Gruff]

I'd like to run something by you to see if I got it right. I thought about how to handle throwing people and how to do it. Here is what I figured out, let me know if you'd do it the same way.

So here is the situation: Big bad nasty Troll wants to pick up the vigilant hero and throw him a couple of zones into the next nice brick wall to make his head hurt a little ... well a lot actually.

First the Troll needs to get a grapple going. So he does an maneuver with fists to get hold of the hero and create the aspect GOTCHA. The hero rolls poorly on his defense so the aspect gets applied. On his next turn the Troll initiates the grapple but instead of doing the normal grapple attack he decides to throw the hero.

Lifting a normal person is an average difficulty. Lets say the troll has might at Fair (+2) and he gets +6 on lifting because he has supernatural strength. To use something as a throwing weapon your might has to be +6 better on the lifting table, than the difficulty of the object you'd like to throw is. As his combined lifting strength is +8, the Troll can throw the hero as a weapon no problem...

Now comes the tricky part: The hero sails through the air and hits the wall. He should at least be able to defend against the attack by the normal grapple rules. Perhaps he might even defend like against any other normal attack. But again the luck is not on his side and he crashes hard into the wall. What damage do we apply?

I'd decide on the wall being a Weapon: 4 and use normal rules on applying shifts. In the case the Troll decides to throw the hero off of his bridge then falling rules should apply, witch in most cases would be really really bad.

Have I gotten this right? I'm not sure if the damage is in paar. To spice it up we could let the wall defend against the throwing attack and distribute the damage between the hero and the wall (wall is Ledgendary +2 to break ). But I can't decide if that would be to much of a fuzz ...

[CMEast]

I would treat it as a might attack, modified by fists and opposed by athletics. I think the requirement for a might of +6 over the weight value of the target is exactly right, anything less and you couldn't throw them in any way that deal damage, though you might be able to drop them on to an environmental hazard with +4 might.

Speaking of which, check out YS325 for Environmental hazards. I'd follow that rule for weapon value and rule that a standard wall wouldn't have a weapon value unless you make a declaration for it to be a hazard ('hot pipes' and 'brick features' at Weapon:1, 'sharp metal features', 'broken pipes jutting out' at Weapon:2, 'large spikes' and 'hot coals' at Weapon:3 and things like 'spinning saw blades' and 'vats of hot chip fat/acid' at weapon:4.

Bear in mind athletics defends both by allowing the target to land safely and by making it hard to throw the target far.

[Papa Gruff]

Speaking of which, check out YS325 for Environmental hazards. I'd follow that rule for weapon value and rule that a standard wall wouldn't have a weapon value unless you make a declaration for it to be a hazard ('hot pipes' and 'brick features' at Weapon:1, 'sharp metal features', 'broken pipes jutting out' at Weapon:2, 'large spikes' and 'hot coals' at Weapon:3 and things like 'spinning saw blades' and 'vats of hot chip fat/acid' at weapon:4.

Bear in mind athletics defends both by allowing the target to land safely and by making it hard to throw the target far.

I thought more in line of "Impact damage" YW 326 2. column:

Impact Damage
At some point, you may want to have one char-
acter try to hit another character with a car or
other speeding object. This can be considered an
attack using Weapon:5(!) for the car. Generally,
most massive objects like that should be about
Weapon:4 or Weapon:5, like explosives—only
the hardiest of supernatural creatures should be
able to shrug them off.

As the wall absolutely represents a massive object it seams to apply. I might be convinced that it is not appropriate though, because technically the wall isn't thrown, it gets pelted with... hm ...    

[KOFFEYKID]

I might run it slightly different.

Id do: a Might roll to initiate grapple, check the might chart to see if you can lift/throw the grappled guy, then a weapons roll (thrown weapons are under weapons), to throw him.

Now lets say our guy rolled a 6 on his "throw" attack. Id treat it as if the wall was making a 6 Strength attack on the grappler at weapon: 5 (Weapon: 1 for being a brick wall, and 4 more for supernatural strength).

[Papa Gruff]

Id do: a Might roll to initiate grapple, check the might chart to see if you can lift/throw the grappled guy, then a weapons roll (thrown weapons are under weapons), to throw him.

Oh yes yes yes... you are right. There should be a weapons check to throw the "weapon" aka hero onto the "opponent" aka wall. Now: does that mean that the Troll has to wait an other exchange until he can throw his "weapon" after he initiated the grapple, or does the weapons/throwing action count as the attack part of the grapple?

Now lets say our guy rolled a 6 on his "throw" attack. Id treat it as if the wall was making a 6 Strength attack on the grappler at weapon: 5 (Weapon: 1 for being a brick wall, and 4 more for supernatural strength).

That makes sense to me too. Good job Kid'o'Koffey! I would phrase it as the Troll doing the 6 Strength attack at weapons: 5 though, because walls technically can't attack .

[CMEast]

Well impact damage is more referring to cars and trains hitting people. You can't really 'land' on a speed car, nor do you have any affect on it before hitting you. Being thrown is different. Especially as impact damage will be a roll on a skill like driving which generally isn't high, compared to a might skill which is often boosted by powers and stunts.

Sure, I can see the hulking PC picking up his target and sending it speeding towards the closest wall. With a low defense roll and a might of 8 that is a LOT of damage. On the other hand, I can see an agile target struggling out of his grasp, grabbing on to the throwers arms to slow himself and gain control, rolling as he hits the floor or catching himself as he lands.

Giving any wall or floor an automatic weapon value, especially weapon:4 (grenade level), just seems over-kill. Would a wall with a fire beneath it be weapon:8?

I can see where you get it, hitting a wall at 100mph is probably just as painful as being hit by a car at 100mph, I think it's gonna take a lot of might to throw someone that fast and that much might is gonna cause a LOT of damage without needing a weapon value on top. At the end of the day, I think throwing someone is just very different from hitting them with a car and so I don't think impact damage quite works.

Oh, one thing though. I didn't think about what zone they would end up in. Would you say it's fair that they take full damage if they stay in the same zone and then take progressively less damage for each zone further that they are thrown (as momentum is lost).

[CMEast]

Hmm, KIDKOFFEY suggests a good way to justify weapon damage for the wall. Using weapons to deal the throw damage rather than might to deal the throw damage means that giving the wall a weapon damage modifier is still fair.

Also, if it's anything like a normal grapple, you need to initiate the grapple on the first exchange before you can do something with the grapple on the second exchange.

[Papa Gruff]

Well impact damage is more referring to cars and trains hitting people. You can't really 'land' on a speed car, nor do you have any affect on it before hitting you. Being thrown is different. Especially as impact damage will be a roll on a skill like driving which generally isn't high, compared to a might skill which is often boosted by powers and stunts.

Sure, I can see the hulking PC picking up his target and sending it speeding towards the closest wall. With a low defense roll and a might of 8 that is a LOT of damage. On the other hand, I can see an agile target struggling out of his grasp, grabbing on to the throwers arms to slow himself and gain control, rolling as he hits the floor or catching himself as he lands.

Giving any wall or floor an automatic weapon value, especially weapon:4 (grenade level), just seems over-kill. Would a wall with a fire beneath it be weapon:8?

I can see where you get it, hitting a wall at 100mph is probably just as painful as being hit by a car at 100mph, I think it's gonna take a lot of might to throw someone that fast and that much might is gonna cause a LOT of damage without needing a weapon value on top. At the end of the day, I think throwing someone is just very different from hitting them with a car and so I don't think impact damage quite works.

Oh, one thing though. I didn't think about what zone they would end up in. Would you say it's fair that they take full damage if they stay in the same zone and then take progressively less damage for each zone further that they are thrown (as momentum is lost).

Very valid points. By now I changed my opinion. Impact damage isn't the way to go, but treating it as a hazard isn't proper either. Now throwing someone into a hazard is an other story. A wall ain't a huge hazard. I like Koffeykids idea best so far.

Concerning the zones I think that normal throwing rules should apply, meaning that the wall has to be at least in an neighboring zone. If you try to throw further, then there should be no damage. The question is could you throw our hero further then a zone? I think probably not...

[Papa Gruff]

Hmm, KIDKOFFEY suggests a good way to justify weapon damage for the wall. Using weapons to deal the throw damage rather than might to deal the throw damage means that giving the wall a weapon damage modifier is still fair.

Also, if it's anything like a normal grapple, you need to initiate the grapple on the first exchange before you can do something with the grapple on the second exchange.

Isn't technically the maneuver the initiation of the grapple? Am confused now. Got to read up...

Never mind ... it ain't. All that's needed is a tagable aspect. As I understand the rules the Troll would get his attack throwing action right away though, as the grapple seams to be a supplement action?

[Tsunami]

The Grapple is a block action, you do have to roll Might to initiate it. That's a normal action.

Then the target, on it's next action, get's to try to act and maybe break the grapple.

Now it's your turn again, you can either maintain the grapple, with all the possibilities that gives you (damage, maneuvers etc.)
or you can chose to release the grapple and make a full attack, which would include the possibility of throwing the target.

See YS 211:
Finally,  you  can  also  release  the  grapple  if
you want to roll a standard action instead, like
making a full attack, performing a maneuver, or
throwing the opponent (basically forced move-
ment, to a maximum of one zone). The target
gets a defense roll, as usual.

So 1 Action to "grab and hold" + 1 Action to "throw at wall"

[CMEast]

Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.

Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.

[Papa Gruff]

Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.

Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.

AH... good idea! That might be the easiest solution. We could just treat it as a normal attack and let it all get handled by narration. The problem I see with this is, that it does more then a normal attack is supposed to do. It is capable of hurling somebody into an other zone, where he/she/it might be facing other problems.

An other point is, that a car usually doesn't struggle against being picked up and thrown onto something. A person will probably do that. I think the rules for grapples state that a grapple has to be in place before you can move a person around against his/her will. I might be misinterpreting it, but it somehow feels right to go with grapple here. A potentially very strong attack like this one should be tricky to pull of and the victim of it should be able to try and stop it. The grapple allows for that.

@Tsunami: Thanks for the clarification buddy.

[Tsunami]

Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.

Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.

Yeah, but the car is also not very likely to struggle against you picking it up. Aside from being really heavy that is...

You can of course describe an attack as picking someone up and throwing him into a wall, but that would not allow you to move him to another zone, or add any damage boni other than those gotten from strength powers to the attack.

[Tsunami]

AH... good idea! That might be the easiest solution. We could just treat it as a normal attack and let it all get handled by narration. The problem I see with this is, that it does more then a normal attack is supposed to do. It is capable of hurling somebody into an other zone, where he/she/it might be facing other problems.

An other point is, that a car usually doesn't struggle against being picked up and thrown onto something. A person will probably do that. I think the rules for grapples state that a grapple has to be in place before you can move a person around against his/her will. I might be misinterpreting it, but it somehow feels right to go with grapple here. A potentially very strong attack like this one should be tricky to pull of and the victim of it should be able to try and stop it. The grapple allows for that.

Well... it seems that sometimes we do agree on stuff... *g*

@Tsunami: Thanks for the clarification buddy.

Any time :-)

[Papa Gruff]

Well... it seems that sometimes we do agree on stuff...

I'd say we usually do, but neither of us is listening properly to what the other is trying to communicate.