Helping My Players - "Wrestler" Character

[Crion]

Now that I might be getting a table together (FINALLY! *fingers crossed*), I'm hearing of ideas for the PCs. Some of them are pretty simple, such as Magic-Dabbling Occult Journalist and "I Was a Teenage Werewolf," and I have no difficulties with the situations there.

But one guy wants to do something similar to a WWE Wrestler. He thinks it would be entertaining to be like King from Tekken, using body slams, grapples and throws as his method of combat.

Now, I know the grapple rules are a bit stranger than most other games (i.e. maneuver to place an aspect, tag/invoke the aspect for the grapple, then contend from there), so I'm not 100% certain the best way to do this.

Personally, I'm thinking of tossing stunts out there, such as using Fists instead of Might for grapple attempts, or if I should have him use those "special" moves like the Tornado DDT as a maneuver/flavor-based attack. And for things like Body Slams, should it just be a Might-based attack after the grapple is made and breaks the grapple afterward?

Anyone else run into this situation, or have any ideas how to help? Those are just my thoughts on the matter, so any assistance and sound boarding would be greatly appreciated.

[KOFFEYKID]

No, keep might as the requisite skill, since he'll need that if he actually wants to throw anybody. Is he going to have inhuman strength?

[luminos]

finding a reason for him to have inhuman strength will go miles towards making it a viable wrestling type character.  Give him a high might skill, and a few might based stunts on top of that (perhaps one that lets him use might in place of fists for making attacks, for instance).

[Crion]

Honestly, I think the players wants to be (or at least start) as a Vanilla Mortal. He might consider a Lycanthropy-like idea, or any other option for that matter, but he did say he likes being "simple."

So, keep him with a high Might skill, and at least one stunt to allow him to use Might instead of Fists for attacks. Any way to make the grappling attempts easier, or how to tell how these "special moves" can have some sort of systematic effect?

If you are familiar with the WWE, his exact references were the "Twist of Fate," the "Rock Bottom," a "Tornado DDT" and the "Stone Cold Stunner." He also did mention King from Tekken (as previously noted), which makes me think of chaining slams together, thus my line of thought on whether or not a slam would break the grapple, or if it would be possible to do a slam and still require the "escape" roll (with the one doing the slam suffering a -1)?

Again, tossing out ideas, adding some clarity to the situation, etc.

Thanks again for all the help so far!

[JosephKell]

You need stunts.

Wrestler is an example of a straight up +1 for maintaining a grapple (it basically off-sets the -1 penalty incurred when you use your supplemental action to inflict a 1 physical stress).

I am not sure if extra shifts of effect will up the physical stress.  I don't see why it wouldn't.

Getting a Grip: Gain +2 to your Might when using a maneuver to apply an aspect to an animate target.
Sleeper Hold: Add 3 to the damage of a Might check when grappling, once per scene, for a fate point.  This stacks with other damage increasing stunts or powers for Might.
Right Where I Want Him: While you are maintaining a grapple, you get +2 to all defense rolls from a target you are grappling.
Log Toss: You may use Might instead of Weapons for throwing heavy objects.  (This is actually more specific than it needs to be.  The trapping is "Distance Weaponry")
He's Got a Steel Chair!: You may use Might instead of Weapons for melee combat.

And of course Mighty Thews to have a better chance of picking someone up.

You could combine Getting a Grip and Right Where I Want Him and have it give +1 (instead of +2) to each situation (to help cut down on the number of stunts).

Re-reading the grapple rules down is giving me a hilarious idea for a bounty hunter.  The supplemental choices (all of which incur a -1 penalty on the Might check to maintain the grapple) include: one-shift physical hit, drag the target a zone, or inflict a manevuer.  I am imagining a character using multiple exchanges to stack maneuvers, then to suddenly tag them all to do some sort of hog tying action!

An idea for eventually going "supernatural" could be like the wrestler, El Toro Fuerte, in the Jackie Chan Adventures.  He gets an Item of Power that grants great strength while worn/carried.

[Remy Sinclair]

In a book I read there was a Professional Wrestler who was also a Werewolf, being a Werewolf he was able to heal better from the injury from happening in the ring. This is in the Kitty Norville Series by Carrie Vaughn.

If you are allowing a professional wrestler, you must know pro wrestling is not real. If he is a WWE styled wrestler he is just a stuntman with a special set of skills. I know a couple of IRL independent wrestlers that never made it to the WWE but one has friends there. They showed me some moves and locks and some secrets like how they communicate to each other in the ring as well as what the refs are really there for. Yes, they do have a role.

Now if you decided pro wrestling is real then good for you, but if he wants to be a real good hand to hand fighter with a punishing background he should go Mixed Martial Arts or Boxing or Kick Boxing or Underground Fighting something more real.

[luminos]

One way to make "special moves" have a systemic effect is to make an aspect along the lines of the character knowing a lot of those special moves, and then you can invoke that aspect and describe what specific move he is using for the standard +2 bonus for invoking.

[jb.teller4]

I don't remember if it's technically correct, but I would say that while an aspect is needed to start a grapple, that doesn't necessarily have to be placed by a maneuver.  For example, I'd allow a scene aspect that somehow penned the opponent in (basically being in a "ring" type of situation) to be used to initiate a grapple as well.

Similarly, a stunt that said you could go straight into a grapple without an aspect or maneuver first seems fine to me.  The standard stunt ability of +2 in narrow circumstances is equal to an aspect invoke/tag, so saying you could effectively count as having an aspect to start a grapple for free seems fine to me.

But I would agree with an earlier post and suggest keeping Might as the top skill instead of using a stunt to move it to fists, based on the concept.  I think that a stunt to use Fists for grapple is fine -- I think that Karrin Murphy has that stunt -- and it makes sense for martial arts or finesse based grappling, but it doesn't seem to match a WWE-style wrestler.

-John

[JosephKell]

I don't remember if it's technically correct, but I would say that while an aspect is needed to start a grapple, that doesn't necessarily have to be placed by a maneuver.  For example, I'd allow a scene aspect that somehow penned the opponent in (basically being in a "ring" type of situation) to be used to initiate a grapple as well.

Similarly, a stunt that said you could go straight into a grapple without an aspect or maneuver first seems fine to me.  The standard stunt ability of +2 in narrow circumstances is equal to an aspect invoke/tag, so saying you could effectively count as having an aspect to start a grapple for free seems fine to me.

But I would agree with an earlier post and suggest keeping Might as the top skill instead of using a stunt to move it to fists, based on the concept.  I think that a stunt to use Fists for grapple is fine -- I think that Karrin Murphy has that stunt -- and it makes sense for martial arts or finesse based grappling, but it doesn't seem to match a WWE-style wrestler.

-John

It has to be an "appropriate aspect on the target to justify the grapple."

So most scene aspects (and your own aspects) aren't going to help.  Perhaps something like "Pitch Darkness" might help if the target can't see in the dark.  But then you have to restrict your initial Might score by your Alertness (to locate them without sight) if you can't see in the dark yourself.

I.e. you can't just have a high concept of "Olympic Wrestler" and tag it to start a grapple.  Other people can't even tag it to start a grapple on you since you being a really good wrestler isn't an appropriate reason for them to succeed in starting a grapple.  An appropriate permanent aspect might be "Athletically Challenged" or "Two Left Feet."

[CMEast]

As Joseph Kell says, it needs to be an aspect on the target itself. The reason most people use manoeuvres is that it gives them a free tag, allowing them to grapple someone without a fate point.

Rather than use a manoeuvre, you can cause a consequence and then tag that to grapple someone. So just hit them rather than 'knocking them off balance' and rely on strength to deal enough damage. The benefit of this is that dealing that extra damage can shorten the fight considerably, it's just a little unreliable as you must deal enough stress to cause a consequence. This works better with a strength power.

Alternatively, you can make an assessment to find a weak point, either by finding an existing aspect (like the aforementioned 'athletically challenged') or by declaring that you've seen a weak spot (using your fists skill to declare that they have a 'weak guard', or alertness to spot that they have 'untied laces'). The benefit of this is that you can make the assessment in the social conflict before the fight, or you can even make the declaration on the main bad guy three sessions before the final fight and, as long as it's a relevant one (as they'll probably tie their shoes eventually) it'll still be there for the fight.

Finally, you could create a stunt that allows you to call someone out as a supplemental action, just like wrestlers do before a match. The 'psych out' would place a fragile manoeuvre that could be tagged for the grapple, but you'd get a -1 on the roll for it being supplemental unless he has a speed power. You could do this as a standard manoeuvre using intimidation but it'll take an exchange again.

------------------

Oh and Joseph Kell also says, just give him a belt of strength or something. It'll massively increase his grappling power! Inhuman strength is only -2 and will give him a higher chance of causing consequences as well as dealing much more damage in the grapple, while increasing his chances of holding the grapple itself. Basically for any successful grappler you pretty much have to have strength!

Make it an enchanted wrestling belt, say he won it in a wrestling match with a fae, or even with an old demi-god thing. That sort of thing happens all the time in greek myths . As a wrestler he learns of a wrestling competition while having a drink in a bar, not realising he was in the accorded neutral ground and that he was surrounded by supernatural types of all sorts. They egg on him, thinking it would be funny, but he manages to win and it so impressed the judges that they reward him with the belt. Unfortunately he is tripping over the supernatural all the time now, as winning the belt seems to have made him the fae's favourite toy.

F.W.F Wrestling belt. (Fae Wrestling Federation).
One time discount is +1 if it's a normal looking belt to wear; +2 if it's a large, gold wrestling trophy belt.

So:
[+1] One time discount
[-2] Inhuman Strength

or:
[+2] One time discount
[-4] Supernatural Strength

[Crion]

There is a LOT of great things for me to work with here, so I would like to thank everyone before addressing individual points. So, again, Thank You.

Now, point by point. . .

@JosephKell: Those are great options for stunts. I haven't really put much thought into it (especially not knowing what exactly the guy is considering), and I'm not as familiar with the line of thought he's approaching. If you have any other random thoughts/samples/advice on stunt making, I would be more than happy to hear it.

@UltraTroll: I would agree that an MMA fighter would be a more "deadly" option, it is not my place to really say "no" to a player's concept, especially in Fate. Now, while I would also agree that what I have seen of the moves used in the WWE and other presentations are for show and many are horribly impractical, I do have to side with my player in that being slammed is going to hurt, and some submission moves can be utilized in ways similar to various joint locks. But again, he's going for the style, and with the idea of grappling and slamming, I can see it as being "practical" and, at the very least, entertaining.

@luminos: Good call on having an Aspect to represent move sets. I'll mention it to the player and see if he can/is interested in tying that in. Any suggestions on an Aspect name that I can give as a sample (even if it's a High Concept)? Ideas in my head range from "Aspiring Wrestling Entertainer" to "And now for my finisher!"

@CMEast: Good notes, as always. Don't assessments just help you tag an Aspect that already exists? And can you actually make a declaration against a living target? But overall, I'm liking the idea of "I'm calling you out" (I'm almost considering the phrasing for another Aspect, actually), and I'm rather familiar with the idea of winning objects of power in contests; I just don't know if the player wants anything to do with the supernatural at character creation.


Again, good comments so far. Anyone else have nuggets of wisdom to offer?

[black omega]

Speaking as a fan of Japanese pro wrestling and someone who used to play King on Tekkan, I'd say the grapple system is not the best way to simulate most of his moves.  The grapple system is alot like in MMA where someone is taken down or clinched and the opponent uses that to control his opponent.  All the moves mentioned are more sudden impact moves, not grab and hold moves.  You hit the move but don't have the opponent grabbed or controlled.  I'd say a stunt to let him use might for unarmed hand to hand would be a good start.  Bigger moves like a lariat could be done with 'Swing for the Fences'.  'Killer Blow' could be used for the big final move.  And he can just be creative in describing the moves done. 

[Steed]

I just want to stop in and point out that while the moves in pro wrestling, when performed correctly, mostly just hurt, they can also be very damaging when performed incorrectly.  Which, in this case, could be something as simple as not putting someone's head a couple of inches further up or down.

[CMEast]

@CMEast: Good notes, as always. Don't assessments just help you tag an Aspect that already exists? And can you actually make a declaration against a living target? But overall, I'm liking the idea of "I'm calling you out" (I'm almost considering the phrasing for another Aspect, actually), and I'm rather familiar with the idea of winning objects of power in contests; I just don't know if the player wants anything to do with the supernatural at character creation.

Well thanks And yes you're right that assessments generally just discover aspects already there, however you can also use declarations to add aspects to scenes or people (YS116 gives an example of both). Generally the aspects are sticky but it depends on the nature of them and how they are used, as long as they will provide a combat advantage you can use them to grapple though. You could declare that the ground under your opponents feet is unstable or slippery using alertness (or perhaps investigation or survival depending on circumstances) or you could declare that the fae in front of you has an odd centre of gravity and if you just hit them in the right spot they should go down pretty easily (rolling fists generally or perhaps lore for supernatural creatures.

As to them not liking the supernatural. That's fair enough, but they may dislike their character if they can't do what they want with it. What I'd do in that case is either a) Give them the option of changing or b) If they save some refresh just let them do the wrestling competition in-game. That could be a fun sideline and there are very few people that turn down loot and a good story!

[Crion]

Well thanks And yes you're right that assessments generally just discover aspects already there, however you can also use declarations to add aspects to scenes or people (YS116 gives an example of both). Generally the aspects are sticky but it depends on the nature of them and how they are used, as long as they will provide a combat advantage you can use them to grapple though. You could declare that the ground under your opponents feet is unstable or slippery using alertness (or perhaps investigation or survival depending on circumstances) or you could declare that the fae in front of you has an odd centre of gravity and if you just hit them in the right spot they should go down pretty easily (rolling fists generally or perhaps lore for supernatural creatures.

As to them not liking the supernatural. That's fair enough, but they may dislike their character if they can't do what they want with it. What I'd do in that case is either a) Give them the option of changing or b) If they save some refresh just let them do the wrestling competition in-game. That could be a fun sideline and there are very few people that turn down loot and a good story!

Thanks for clearing that one up for me. I'm just used to having declarations on non-"living" things, so your idea seemed off to me.
I'll try to find the time to look at that note during my lunch break (the books have been brought to work and elsewhere since they arrived last week). And thanks for the samples; may have to forward them to the party members for ideas.

As for the belt: I was thinking it would be better done in game, especially if I use that Renn Faire idea I have in the other forum as the start of the game. I think it would be hilarious if the party just gets roaring drunk and this character wrestles the Master-of-Arms (was tempted to make him an Ogre-Changeling under the command of the Sidhe-Changeling "Noble") and wins. Makes the player feel as though he really earned the item while still remaining a mortal.

But again, depends on how he decides to do things. ^_^

Thanks again for the feedback/ideas.