Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)

[Barodahn]

So I am working on a really long lived character... been around for ages and ages...and seems to me that someone thousands of years old should have some extra skill points...

What would people think is a fair number of skill points to get for -1 refresh and stay balanced?  5? 10? I am not familiar enough with the game balance to really work it out...

Edit:  I meant specifically as a power, not as a stunt, maybe as an option for recovery powers.

[luminos]

Balanced is giving +2 to a specific trapping of a skill.

[Deadmanwalking]

As a Power? I'd say giving a flat +2 to a particular skill or a Skill Substitution for an entire skill sounds about right. The second is more like what you want, it could result in something like this:

Wide Experience [-1]:

You have extensive experience, and by extensive we mean not hundreds, but likely thousands of years. Due to this extensive experience, you may use your Scholarship instead of another skill for all uses of said skill. This power may only be taken for intellectual skills, or ones that can be learned purely intellectually, physical abilities require constant practice. You may take this Power multiple times, but no more than your Scholarship rating.



Then take it the maximum of 5 times for Discipline, Lore, Empathy, Deceit, and Survival (or something like that). Combined with a Superb Scholarship, this'll make you a fairly badass character. The only other skills needed by your typical immortal are Weapons, Athletics, and Resources (though Endurance, Presence, and Conviction all seem reasonable to have at Good).

[JustinS]

Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.

[JosephKell]

The problem with this is that skill points "stack."  While stunts and most powers don't.

For instance, would you rather have a stunt that gives +1 to attacks with shotguns or a guns skill that is 1 rank higher?  Obviously the latter.

Instead I would just say that every time the PCs are awarded an additional refresh, up their total skill points to the appropriate level of their new refresh.  If there were (say) 2 milestones for bonus skill points (but no bonus refresh), then give 3 more skill points with the refresh point.

6 refresh: 20 skill points
7 refresh: 25 skill points
8 refresh: 30 skill points
(9 refresh: 32 skill points?)
10 refresh: 35 skill points

After that... I am not sure how skill points should relate to refresh.  Maybe 3 skill points per refresh?

It is hard to say what is a better model for character power, skill points or refresh.  The worst thing that can happen is the PCs getting "refresh" heavy without the skills to back it up.  Otherwise they may face more powerful opposition than they can handle.

[ahunting]

There are a couple points to address in the skill to refresh question.
1. Skill Cap
2. Skill Pyramid/Column mechanics
3. Skill Advancement, (See Significant and major mile stones YS 89.)
4. Possible Refresh to skill costs.

Skill cap, handing out skill for refresh can be kept manageable assuming you do not allow such skill point to break the cap (IE no skill above X level).

The danger of doing this is of course, the primary mechanic from preventing a PC from climb to the next level real quickly is the mechanics of the Pyramid/Column. So if you let PCs buy additional skill and then raise the skill cap those characters that have bought skill can jump ahead much more rapidly then those who have not.

Skill advancement should be more rapid then refresh (Duh). There are two types of milestones that give out skill advancement, and Significant milestones and major milestones, significant should be more common then Majors Milestones.

So now value of refresh to skill (Yeah i know you didn't need all that sill background). We had discussed a couple concepts on it, we have never implemented them mainly b/c it didn't seem necessary. The first is a static value, we took a guess at 2, but that probably a little conservative. Another one purposed was based upon total stunt numbers, 1 point per 2 stunts, was purposed, if memory serves. (which translate to something as high as 5 skill points for 1 point of refresh) admittedly most folks don't go that heavy into stunts but it was for pure mortal concept. Again we never actually implemented that just looked at it. I'd probably pick a value put it into play and see what effect it has, and change it from there, if I was determined to do it. 
 

[Drachasor]

Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.

That's one good idea.

Hmm, how much do you guys think a power would cost that adds +2 to a skill check of your choice once per scene?  (I think something in this form with an aspect would be ideal).

[CMEast]

How about something like this:
[-4] I've done it all. Twice.
All skills start at average. The skill cap is one higher for your refresh level.

This way the skill pyramid is still there and it can't be abused or ignored and yet it shows that, with 1000's of years of experience, the PC has tried almost everything at some point or another. It also shows that they can get amazingly good at something with all of that time.

I called it -4 because it could be taken twice at most (as a submerged character) and it is a fairly large chunk of refresh, but it still leaves some refresh for stunts.

[TheMouse]

Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.

This seems like the path of lease resistance to me. There's no concern with needing to worry about the balance of just another Aspect.

[Kordeth]

You could also take a variant on True Shapeshifting and describe it as "accessing muscle memory" for your physical skills. You know, something like "400 years ago I served with a Swiss mercenary troupe, and I still know a thing or two about pike-fighting," and suddenly you bump Weapons up at the cost of some other skill. I'd maybe kock a -1 off the Refresh since you aren't also getting the ability to actually change shape.

[Barodahn]

Hm... what do you all think about some kind of Modular Skills based on Modular Abilities? You select a pool of skills and can change them? With some kind of surcharge?

[Deadmanwalking]

Well...there's already True Shapeshifting, which basically does that for Physical Skills. I'd say it'd be -3 sans the physical Shapeshifting (and thus the +4 on disguise)...so something like that might be valid for mental or Social skills, too. Maybe even for a slight discount...

If I as going to do truly Modular Skills ala True Shapeshifting for all skils, I'd probably call it a -7 Refresh Ability, and still not let it raise Contacts or Resources above the basic pyramid's ratings. But I don't think that would accurately reflect what you're looking for, I mean, why would your character suddenly have, say, lower Discipline just because he's using Deceit? It doesn't make sense in the context you're using.

[Barodahn]

There is definitely that problem, i just felt like an elegant solution in a way.  I like DMW's idea of  Wide Experience, and makes sense in a way since someone that long lived SHOULD have high scholarship, just that at -1 you would essentially be getting a skill for free at superb (or whatever level you have scholarship at), that seems to be a bit much...

CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Can anyone think of someway to mix the two that i am missing?

[Deadmanwalking]

There is definitely that problem, i just felt like an elegant solution in a way.  I like DMW's idea of  Wide Experience, and makes sense in a way since someone that long lived SHOULD have high scholarship, just that at -1 you would essentially be getting a skill for free at superb (or whatever level you have scholarship at), that seems to be a bit much...

Well, it's a Power. They're supposed to be better than Stunts (which can give an entire Trapping, or even two). Also, check out Mimic, it actually grants addirional skills (though only at a rating equal to the guy you Mimic).

CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Yeah, it's a neat idea, but wonky in practice.

Can anyone think of someway to mix the two that i am missing?

I'm biased, but I think I stuck in enough limitations that Wide Experience is actually fairly balanced all on it's own.

[Ala Alba]

CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Why? All it is, is a flat +1 to EVERY skill.

Far, far too powerful.